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Author Topic: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)  (Read 20782 times)

Dan Wells

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Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« on: March 25, 2015, 09:54:33 pm »

    I have been using Macs for many years, but recently started experimenting with (and liking) a Surface Pro 3 as well, so I'm very open to either Mac or Windows as I replace my main portable editing system. I’d prefer a Mac if all else were equal, but there are many more options on the PC side. I'm looking for a powerful notebook with a great high-resolution, color-accurate display, good internal storage and RAM potential and a versatile collection of ports. On the PC side, the purpose-built notebook workstations from a couple of vendors look appealing, although there are also gaming-focused notebooks that could be turned into photo powerhouses. On the Mac side, it's of course the Retina MBP 15", take it or leave it. The Mac would appeal to me more if it were more customizable (the most galling flaw is that the RAM is soldered and the SSD proprietary).

The three most interesting machines I've found are the Lenovo W541, the Dell Precision M3800 and the rMBP. Razer and Asus thin gaming notebooks look appealing, but I can't see why to choose them over the workstations from Lenovo and Dell. The lighter Lenovo W550 is a dual-core, while everything I'm looking at is a quad. The Dell M4800 seems a lot bigger and heavier than the others, even the Lenovo W541, and I can't quite see why.
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The Lenovo is bigger and heavier than the others (6 lbs), but it has a nicer keyboard, built-in color calibration, the fastest processor (many choices, up to a VERY expensive Extreme Edition that's not worth bothering with), the only 32 GB RAM capacity in the bunch and probably the fastest graphics (Quadro k2100 available, about 1.5x the speed of the Quadro k1100/GeForce 750m in the others). It's extremely customizable, so it can cost almost anything (it starts around $1200, but goes over $2000 quickly with the desirable options). The display I’d choose is a 3K IPS model (probably from Panasonic) with a matte screen. Lenovo's RAM and SSD choices are hugely expensive, BUT it takes standard, easily accessible RAM and drives. It's actually possible to shoehorn THREE SSDs into this machine (one of them is a half-size mSATA slot limited to 256 GB that I'm unlikely to bother with – although it’s interesting that I could, in fact set it up with applications, data and cache, all on separate SSDs). My most likely configuration is a 32 GB/1.5 TB (512 plus 1 TB) combo for around $2500 (using an existing 512 GB SSD), depending on processor and graphics card.

The Dell looks (and weighs) just like a MacBook Pro, but it'll take up to 2 standard SSDs (one 2.5" plus one full-size mSATA), for a maximum capacity of 2 TB - I'm likely to use a 1.5 TB configuration, largely because I have a nice 512 GB SSD around. Maximum RAM is 16 GB, which is an easy choice – install all it will take.  The display is a true 4k Sharp IGZO panel, although without the built-in color calibration of the Lenovo, and in glossy only. The processor is about 20% slower than the most likely option on the Lenovo (very similar to the base option, but the Lenovo has some reasonably priced upgrades), and about the same as the midrange rMBP. The graphics card is the professional (Quadro) version of the same card the Mac uses. Keyboard and touchpad are better than most laptops, but probably not up to Mac/high end ThinkPad standards. About $2300 once I add RAM and drives.

The Mac is the most expensive, largely because I can't use my existing drive or add my own RAM or terabyte drive. For about the same price as the others, I'd get a 16/512 configuration with the midrange processor. The fastest processor adds a couple of hundred, and is probably almost but not quite as fast as the Lenovo. To get a terabyte drive costs an extra $500, and deletes the 512GB drive (the other two accommodate two SSDs). The display is the same resolution as the Lenovo, but quite a bit lower than the 4k Dell, and glossy is the only option. Mac OS X IS nice - Windows is catching up, but not quite there yet. The concern with the Mac besides cost due to proprietary/soldered parts is repair - replacing the keyboard or touchpad on recent Macs is a $500+ job, because these frequently broken parts are permanently attached to the case, along with 15 other things. Both the Dell and Lenovo have good repair manuals and the obvious moving parts are reasonably easy to replace without replacing half the computer to get at them!
Between the PCs and the Mac, the question is basically whether or not to pay a $500 “Apple Tax” and accept reduced upgradability and repairability to get Mac OS X. If it weren’t for the operating system difference, I clearly like the Apple hardware the LEAST of the three – the PCIe SSDs are a bit faster, but the SATA SSDs in the others are already very fast, and I’d gladly trade off PCIe for multiple drives and improved access. The screen on the Mac is also my third choice – I’d rather have either 4k or matte (with built-in calibration) than neither of the above. The Adobe CC suite is essentially the same on Mac and Windows, so the only argument for the Mac comes down to Mail and Safari being nicer than Outlook and Firefox (they are, in my opinion, although I prefer MS Office on Windows to Office for Mac), and to the core OS being somewhat better, although significantly less so than it once was.

If I don’t go with a Mac, the decision between Dell and Lenovo (and between CPU and GPU options in the case of the Lenovo) comes down to a few questions:

1.)   Does the GPU matter to the Adobe suite? Nothing else I use will ever access the GPU, so I’d get either the Dell or the Lenovo with the cheaper GPU unless Adobe cares about the k2100. Relatedly, does the fact that the two PCs use workstation Quadro cards, and the Mac uses a (closely related, but gaming-focused) GeForce matter? The GeForce is certainly not an advantage, but is it a disadvantage for Adobe the way it is for AutoCAD?
2.)   How much difference will 20% in CPU speed (Lenovo’s upgraded CPU vs. Dell) and the ability to use 32 GB of RAM make for working with really big RAW files and some 4k video?
3.)   How spectacular is that Dell 4k IGZO display going to be? Is it worth forgoing the faster CPU and GPU for?
4.)   How much will I hate a 6 lb laptop instead of a 4.2 lb laptop – we’re getting spoiled – it wasn’t long ago that even the portly Lenovo would have been called an ultralight.
5.)   How big a deal is the difference between decent (Dell) and spectacular (Lenovo) for the keyboard and trackpad (Lenovo also includes a trackpoiunt).
Depending on the answers to these, I could end up with the Dell, a somewhat cheaper Lenovo configured a lot like the Dell (the base CPU and GPU on the Lenovo are very close to the Dell), or a more expensive Lenovo with upgrades the Dell just doesn’t offer, or the Mac.
Any suggestions? Either suggestions on one machine over another or ideas about how to think about these questions are most welcome!
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Farmer

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2015, 10:42:37 pm »

1. Mostly, it cares about how much RAM the GPU has, and a discreet GPU over a CPU based graphics option is very worth while.  Other than that, not a lot of difference.

2. Access to more RAM will help a lot with video (4K in particular), and large RAW files if you have many layers or make panos.  The CPU speed does help - 20% is not to be sneezed at, but less critical than the RAM.

3. Can't comment.

4. You'll feel it, but get used to it.

5. They're quite configurable through the utility in terms of sensitivity and which options you want (how you click, gestures, and so on).  I've found both to perfectly usable but always take a separate mouse if you want to do anything remotely serious in terms of retouching in the field.

Between PC and Mac, it's entirely your personal preference, there's really no technology-based rationale to prefer one over the other.
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Phil Brown

AlterEgo

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 09:56:15 am »

Any suggestions? Either suggestions on one machine over another or ideas about how to think about these questions are most welcome!

Dell or Lenovo make sense only if you care about shiny look & feel... if you care about price/performance and what is inside (like for example 4 bays for mSATA/SSD HDDs or you want to put K5100 inside) go for OEM like Clevo - configure something @ http://www.xoticpc.com/custom-gaming-laptops-notebooks-clevo-sager-notebooks-ct-95_51_162.html , there are models that can be configured with 3840x2160 LCD panels from either Sharp or Samsung if you really want it...

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Rory

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 09:57:20 am »

Strictly out of curiosity, and not to start a debate, what are the things you like better in OSX vs Windows?  I ask because I use both, but know a lot more about Windows and feel I might be missing something when I'm using OSX.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 10:54:08 am »

OS X just feels more "finished" to me - everything seems to be made to work together (Windows is catching up, though), and I far prefer Safari to other browsers, mostly due to privacy settings being stricter. I also prefer Mail to Outlook, although I think that is partially because I don't know Outlook as well yet (some of the feel of Windows vs. OS X is probably down to the same thing). For a long time, there was a huge difference in color management (the Mac has been excellent for years, Windows was a hack until recently), but Windows has REALLY closed that gap, and 8.1 handles color very acceptably.

As for the Sager/Clevo laptops, I couldn't find the models with the high-res panels. They are also mostly heavier and less polished than the big makers' products (although there are a few that are more appealing). One thing I'm not clear on is whether the Adobe suite cares between the gaming and workstation versions of the same graphics card? One article I read said that Adobe's GPU acceleration barely works at all on GeForce cards, but uses Quadros fully, while others have said that it doesn't matter. I'd like to get this straight, because the Dell and Lenovo are two of only a few machines with a Quadro, but if the equivalent GeForce is all the same to Adobe, there are many more options...
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Rory

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 11:04:49 am »

OS X just feels more "finished" to me - everything seems to be made to work together (Windows is catching up, though), and I far prefer Safari to other browsers, mostly due to privacy settings being stricter. I also prefer Mail to Outlook, although I think that is partially because I don't know Outlook as well yet (some of the feel of Windows vs. OS X is probably down to the same thing). For a long time, there was a huge difference in color management (the Mac has been excellent for years, Windows was a hack until recently), but Windows has REALLY closed that gap, and 8.1 handles color very acceptably.

Thanks Dan.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 11:55:55 am »

As for the Sager/Clevo laptops, I couldn't find the models with the high-res panels.

you need to configure/customize, they are not posted in default configurations, so it requires to actually going inside configuration to see - for example Clevo P750ZM aka SAGER NP9752-S :

    15.6” FHD 16:9 LED Backlit Wide screen (1920x1080) Super Clear Matte Type Sager IPS Screen (SKU - SSC878)   
   15.6" 4K QFHD (16:9) Glare-Type Glossy Screen (3840x2160) (Samsung Brand / 60Hz) (SKU - S4K002) ( + 150 )
   15.6" 4K QFHD (16:9) Glare-Type Glossy Screen (3840x2160) (Sharp Brand / 60Hz) (SKU - S4K001) ( + 275 )


http://www.xoticpc.com/sager-np9752s-clevo-p750zm-eta-jan23-p-7854.html?wconfigure=yes

certainly you do not buy RAM and SSD/HDD there, you buy barebones with CPU/video/display panel and put your own RAM/SSD/HDD as it is cheaper and better to procure elsewhere... Clevo (or Sager) has many other retailers, selling customized to your taste barebones or complete notebooks = http://mythlogic.com or http://www.pro-star.com


They are also mostly heavier and less polished than the big makers' products (although there are a few that are more appealing).

yes, they are workhorses, not toys  :)


« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 12:02:04 pm by AlterEgo »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 12:21:28 pm »

Regarding the MBP the question is if you will need more than 16GB of RAM and remember the memory compression built into OSX which works seamless. There are not yet SSD upgrades available but I believe this will come as it did with the previous 15" MBP retina version. I have the 15" MBP late 2013 with 1TB SSD. I have used MBP's since 2009 and never had a keyboard break. The only repair job was a fan which was repaired under warranty. But all HW can break. It's my only machine and I travel 100+ days per year and have had no downtime. I'm sure you can save some bucks with a PC and Windows, but I think the MBP is a no-brainer :)

AlterEgo

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 12:49:11 pm »

One article I read said that Adobe's GPU acceleration barely works at all on GeForce cards, but uses Quadros fully, while others have said that it doesn't matter. I'd like to get this straight, because the Dell and Lenovo are two of only a few machines with a Quadro, but if the equivalent GeForce is all the same to Adobe, there are many more options...

it depends on what do you (and Adobe want), for example the direction where new NVidia cards are going GPU computation wise = http://www.anandtech.com/show/9096/nvidia-announces-quadro-m6000-quadro-vca-2015 

at the moment LR/ACR (unlike C1) are not GPU accelerated, but they surely shall be sooner or later

also some people want to enjoy 10-bit workflow (and that requires a certain videocard)
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Dan Wells

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 03:59:42 pm »

C1 is an interesting point - I've used it a lot over the years, at this instant, I'm more satisfied with LR's white balance on Sony A7r images, but I
 can't wait to try 8.2, which has greatly increased white balance flexibility. Does anyone know whether it differentiates between GeForce and Quadro cards? Same question applies to Premiere, which has substantial GPU acceleration (and I often encode relatively long videos). If these applications really want the Quadros, that reduces choices to the few notebooks with Quadro cards. If the GeForce versions will work, then almost any high-end notebook will do.

To each their own on the Sager/Clevo/etc. question. From what little I've been able to find out about them, they are pushing me more and more towards the Lenovo ThinkPad, precisely because Lenovo is about the only manufacturer that avoids those guys altogether (many "brand-name" notebooks are just Sagers and Clevos by another name (Sager/Clevo designs), while Apple and now Dell do their own designs, but have those companies put them together, and Lenovo actually does their own manufacturing, especially at the higher end). What I can find out about the fit and finish differences, as well as the quality of the display panels, suggests that the (modest) additional price of the ThinkPad is probably worth it.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 05:27:04 pm »

Does anyone know whether it differentiates between GeForce and Quadro cards?

somebody with Quadro and C1 can tell you opencl performance index, C1 writes the number in its log - the lower the faster the card is for C1 - see ImgCore.log

for example

HD4600 = OpenCL benchMark : 0.821440
GeForce GTX 870M = OpenCL benchMark : 0.334176

C1 will be using both cards, so if you have a notebook with dual cards (Clevo has such models) = both will be used + GPU embedded in intel CPU

« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 05:52:06 pm by AlterEgo »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 05:58:08 pm »

From what little I've been able to find out about them, they are pushing me more and more towards the Lenovo ThinkPad, precisely because Lenovo is about the only manufacturer that avoids those guys altogether (many "brand-name" notebooks are just Sagers and Clevos by another name (Sager/Clevo designs), while Apple and now Dell do their own designs, but have those companies put them together, and Lenovo actually does their own manufacturing, especially at the higher end). What I can find out about the fit and finish differences, as well as the quality of the display panels, suggests that the (modest) additional price of the ThinkPad is probably worth it.

lenovo does not make panels - you will get the same Sharp or Samsung panel driven by the same Nvidia or AMD or Intel card...

Sages is just a big Clevo reseller - Clevo is actually the company that does does make notebooks (most of companies in USA will buy from Sager which buys from Clevo and rebrands, but for example Pro-Star will buy from Clevo directly)

also there are MSI and Gigabyte out there

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Dan Wells

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 06:40:01 pm »

It looks like neither Adobe nor C1 cares about the Quadro cards (as opposed to GeForce) - a Quadro k1100 is just a GeForce 750m, and a Quadro k2100 is somewhat faster, but is just like a faster GeForce. This means that repurposing a gaming notebook is just as viable as a workstation notebook (and that the Mac, which uses a GeForce, will see benefits from its GPU). Some gaming notebooks come with cards that are a great deal faster than any Quadro normally seen in a notebook (there are reasonable notebooks with GeForce 970m cards, although the 980m seems to appear in bulky machines with desktop CPUs) Some older versions of Adobe software would ONLY accelerate if they saw a Quadro card. The newer workstation notebooks may still have design advantages over many bulky gaming notebooks (some of the gaming machines, like the Razers, are very elegant, but many of them are 8 lbs with no battery life), but there is no fundamental reason to choose one just for the Quadro.
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luxborealis

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 07:00:25 pm »

Regarding the MBP the question is if you will need more than 16GB of RAM and remember the memory compression built into OSX which works seamless. There are not yet SSD upgrades available but I believe this will come as it did with the previous 15" MBP retina version. I have the 15" MBP late 2013 with 1TB SSD. I have used MBP's since 2009 and never had a keyboard break. The only repair job was a fan which was repaired under warranty. But all HW can break. It's my only machine and I travel 100+ days per year and have had no downtime. I'm sure you can save some bucks with a PC and Windows, but I think the MBP is a no-brainer :)

+1

The so-called "Apple tax" the OP speaks of quickly pays for itself with a more efficient system that "just works" without the need for the added concern and software required to fight viruses, etc. While Macs can get viruses, they are still far less common than on PCs. One day of downtime trying to sort that out will pay for another round of the so-called Apple tax. And, if you've ever used an Apple trackpad (which I've used exclusively without even thinking about a mouse for years now), then there is another bonus paid for by the Apple tax. How about AirDrop - fantastic, too. It just works. Apple also has a very helpful calibration routine built in.

What about battery life? MBPs are excellent, especially MBAirs, albeit with smaller screens and drives. If it's your only computer than a MBP would make more sense. Thinking about screen size and battery life, how does the Dell with a 4k screen compare in battery life?

Yes the Apple screen is glossy (I hated it at first, too), but the colour fidelity and contrast are excellent. BTW, I'm processing 43mb raw files on my 4-year-old MBP with 8gb of ram in LR with other apps open (Safari, Mail, OneNote, Calendar, possibly web authoring) and experience no troubles.

I gather the OP knows all this as he's "used Macs" (MBPs?), but for anyone else reading, you just can't compare numbers and expect to get the full story.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 07:19:12 pm »

The so-called "Apple tax" the OP speaks of quickly pays for itself with a more efficient system that "just works" without the need for the added concern and software required to fight viruses, etc.

it is a myth spreaded by clueless people... my PC/Win just works, yes with Symantec EP protection for years - but it is free for non commercial use (client only) - just download and use  :D

While Macs can get viruses, they are still far less common than on PCs.

let me translate - mac users simply have no immune system to rely on when something hits them  ;) and no experience how to deal with the issue when something hits them... just like native people when europeans came with their diseases  ::)

BTW, I'm processing 43mb raw files on my 4-year-old MBP with 8gb of ram in LR with other apps open (Safari, Mail, OneNote, Calendar, possibly web authoring) and experience no troubles.

my old PC/Win7 notebook with 8gb RAM (and no virtual memory - swap disabled) was running VMWare inside which RPP was working under OSX with 36mp raw files from D800 in 2.5GB ram allocated to a virtual machine and PS was working with the resulting tiffs natively in Windows at the same time, so what does it prove ? nothing... everybody has a different definition of troubles.

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AlterEgo

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2015, 07:28:54 pm »

It looks like neither Adobe nor C1 cares about the Quadro cards (as opposed to GeForce) - a Quadro k1100 is just a GeForce 750m, and a Quadro k2100 is somewhat faster, but is just like a faster GeForce.

not exactly - it depends what kind of code you run on those... but then you need to ask actual developers - try "lkuhlmann" user here - he is from P1 (Lionel Kuhlmann, technical guy - not some marketing persona) and try ask him (or go to P1 U2U forums)

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armand

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2015, 08:45:27 pm »

I'll add another option for you: Asus Zenbook NX500
Only 500GB SSD, processor is ok but not top, weight is very good, battery life is ok but not great (compared to a Mac Retina at least) BUT it seems to have the best screen: 4K with 97% Adobe RGB (supposedly comes calibrated from the factory).

Dan Wells

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2015, 10:41:24 pm »

That Asus IS intriguing - it's basically a Windows MBP, except with a screen the likes of which nobody has seen (in this rarefied company, even the MBP has an OK screen, but nothing special). On the other hand, $2700??? Compared to everything else I'm seeing, they're charging about $500-$700 for the screen (or they're massively overcharging for the SSD and not giving the end user a choice). But it's pretty much a 4k Dreamcolor display on a laptop, or at least that's what it sounds like! It has one bit of expansion the MBP can't match - it WILL take a second SSD (there's a 2260 m.2 slot, and you can shoehorn a 512 GB drive in there). Right now, 1 TB seems to be the limit (and it's almost exactly as expensive once it has a second SSD as a MBP with a single 1 TB drive).
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armand

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2015, 10:48:11 pm »

Yeah, that's quite pricey. In short if you want the screen it has no peer, otherwise the MBP is a better value (I can't believe I'm placing Apple and value in the same sentence).

Weight is actually more than I thought initially: the quoted 4.2 pounds was with a smaller battery, the one with a large batter is 5 lbs. Still ok but nothing to write home about. It seems to be giving 5-6 hours of regular use, maybe 50% less than a MBP 15 retina despite the slightly larger battery. It was just one review though.

Dan Wells

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Re: Choosing a Notebook Photo Workstation (PC or Mac)
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2015, 11:39:34 pm »

Interestingly enough, Asus' ROG G501 gaming laptop (shipping in the next couple of weeks) seems to be a very similar machine with a GPU one generation newer - for $2000. It is the same panel, although perhaps without the Quantum Dot enhancement (whatever that does). The Dell M3800 also seems to use the same Sharp panel, although again without the 3M Quantum Dot technology. It looks like one can get either that Sharp panel OR full-strength processors, but about the only way to get both is with Dell's bigger, heavier Precision M4800 (or probably a Sager/Clevo equivalent)
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