Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II  (Read 5961 times)

brianrybolt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 625
How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« on: March 24, 2015, 02:48:10 pm »

I am going to Iceland in a few months and I'm in a quandary as to wether or not to buy the A7 II or to use my X-T1 (Fuji lenses).  I have used my Fuji for landscape shoots and have been very surprised by the quality (printed to either 20 or 30 inches (long side). 

Is the Sony going to give me noticeably more detail and micro contrast than my Fuji and will I be able to print larger with good IQ?  I will be using Sony/Zeiss lenses.

Thanks for any input on this.

Cheers,
Brian

Mousecop

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 77
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2015, 04:11:47 pm »

I recommend you rent an A7II setup, and shoot it side by side with the Fuji.  You'll see for yourself if it makes any difference.
Logged

SangRaal

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 114
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 07:05:25 pm »

Renting is a great idea,plus you get to do a real world ergonomic comparo to go with your IQ comparo. Allegedly Sony is already producing an A7rII(see Sony Alpha rumors) so it can be shipped  as soon as it's announced. If you do decide on the Sony make sure to buy extra batteries the alpha's use up a charge quickly and even seem to lose charge overnight when the camera is turned off; I have had best luck with 3rd party batteries(wasabi 2 batteries plus charger and car cord $25 from amazon). pluses for the Sony is the flexibility of FF, quality files. the ability to use my legacy lenses etc. Cons lack of any concept of a true system. I won't be selling or retiring my Canon 1 DX or any of the sports and wildlife lenses that go with it. 
Logged

brianrybolt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 625
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 07:34:13 pm »

Because of where I live in rural England, renting the camera is not an option at this time.
I may wait for the A7r II but trip to Iceland is looming in front of me.

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 07:42:49 pm »

I use both, and would say that it's more down to handling than image quality. Both are very good, with the Fuji having a slight edge, but the Sony more pixels and therefor a slight edge on enlargability. It's close though.

If you already own the Fuji, and are happy with it, I'd see no reason to get the Sony.

Michael
Logged

Paulo Bizarro

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7395
    • http://www.paulobizarro.com
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2015, 05:06:29 am »

If you are happy with the Fuji, don't change. The only advantage I see for the Sony is the IBIS in the A7II, can come in handy for shooting a bit ad hoc without a tripod.

Do you have the Fuji lenses with IS?

Jimbo57

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 180
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2015, 06:54:20 am »

Because of where I live in rural England, renting the camera is not an option at this time.


I don't understand that comment. There are several UK camera and lens rental companies that will ship to anywhere in the British Isles.

Logged

Ken Bennett

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1797
    • http://www.kenbennettphoto.com
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2015, 01:00:08 pm »

I tested the Fuji (with the 23mm lens) side by side with an RX1, made sample 30-inch wide prints, waited a couple of days, and could not tell them apart. I would look at one and say, oh, this one has more fine detail in the foliage, it must be the Sony, and it would be the Fuji. I was very careful with technique for the test, and had a couple of other photogs look at the results -- they thought the same thing.

So, for me, I am satisfied that the Fuji provides the same level of detail as a full frame 24MP Sony sensor. Of course other people will do their own tests and come to different conclusions. But if you already own the Fuji, and you are happy with it.....
Logged
Equipment: a camera and some lenses. https://www.instagram.com/wakeforestphoto/

scooby70

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 489
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2015, 05:12:30 pm »

I may be wrong but I suppose any image quality advantage the full frame Sony offers will become visible in larger prints and higher ISO's. If that assumption is true it'll be up to each of us to decide if we're going to print that big or shoot at that high an ISO.

I have the A7 and it's the best camera I've ever owned. The files are gorgeous. 
Logged

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2015, 01:45:32 pm »

I've had Fuji, have Sony (A7r) and Micro 4/3, and am about to re-add Fuji to my bag. The major reason is that the Fuji files are MUCH better than even the most modern Micro 4/3 sensors can manage, and the system is far more compact than Sony's, unless you are using a small prime on the Sony. I find that Fuji holds up well to 36" on the long side with low ISO images (that is on the edge of what it can do), Sony goes well beyond that - I own a 24" printer, but not a 44", so I haven't found the limit, although some cropped panos I've printed in the range of 24x50" look really good. I'm very careful with Micro 4/3 above 12x18, although it WILL print 16x24 nicely on certain types of images.
The reason I'm adding Fuji back into my kit is the weight of the Sony stuff on a hike. I was hoping the Sony 24-240 travel lens would be a nice everything in one solution, but I discovered it's a nearly 2 lb lens (which means it's going to want the grip on the A7r to hold it steady). A7r, grip and 1.7 lb lens is right around 3.5 lbs, more than I want on my neck on a long hike. X-T1 and 18-135 is just under 2 lbs (the lens is light enough not to want a grip), and probably better weather sealed.

Right now, I'm on THREE mirrorless systems (not ideal, but all have strengths)

Sony for absolute maximum image quality
Fuji for very good quality on longer walks - I'm planning to hike the Appalachian Trail as a photographer!
Micro 4/3 for video and very long lenses (the Panasonic 100-300 is a unique lens, in that it has 600 mm of reach in a reasonably sized package).

I'd like to be down to two systems, or even, ideally one. At least for me, here's what it would take:

1.) Sony releases a serious video camera (WITHOUT NEEDING AN EXTERNAL RECORDER) - 4k and slomo in camera, like the GH4 can do. If I had this, I'd ditch Micro 4/3 and use Sony for both video and ultimate quality, Fuji for long hikes (pick up the upcoming 140-400 and use Fuji for really long lens stuff, too).

OR

2.)Fuji releases something in the 24-28 MP range, with the quality per pixel of their 16 MP X-Trans sensor. That would take the place of the 36 MP Sony (and I think the Fuji lenses are up to it - although I'd buy some lenses beyond the 18-135 hiking lens for best quality), and I'd keep Micro 4/3 for video and perhaps really long lens work.

Less likely options:

3.)Fuji releases a camera with GH4 level video. This would let me go Fuji/Sony, or, if the still quality was also exceptional, Fuji only.

4.)Sony releases a truly portable, high-quality zoom lens that extends beyond 70 mm(I'd like to see something like a 28-135 or a 24-105). Variable aperture is OK, but keep it around a pound, so it doesn't need the grip. I think this is unlikely, because I dug into that question very deeply before ordering the X-T1, and saw no signs of such a beast.

5.)A new Micro 4/3 body ends up with class-leading still image quality (I think this is unlikely, both because physics makes it harder with the small sensor and because they seem to be putting more effort into video and body features). They’d also need to have the right lens – neither the Panasonic 12-35 nor the Olympus 12-40 is quite long enough at the tele end for a hiking lens for me (the Oly 14-55 IS, but that’s not as good a lens as most Fuji lenses, for example).
Logged

brianrybolt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 625
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2015, 02:18:02 pm »

Thank you Dan & others with your replies.  They have helped me with my decision.  I'm going to continue with my X-T1 & E2 (as a back up).  I've bought the wide angle zoom and the battery grip.  I need the grip because my hands are large.  I have also found that the Thumb Rest has really helped me with the stability - I only wish Fuji would have come out with the 140-400 before I go off to Iceland.
Thanks again,
Brian

Mjollnir

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 547
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2015, 03:31:27 pm »

Actually, as as landscape shooter for about 95% of what I do, and having worked with two different Fujis to feel comfortable with them, I find that at base ISO, the landscaper's home address, there is no difference in quality (or the ability to blow things up and retain quality) between them and my Panny GH4.
Logged

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1044
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2015, 05:31:21 pm »

To my eye, there IS a difference (visible on certain high-DR subjects at any size, always visible by 16x24) between even the best of Micro 4/3 and a really good APS-C sensor (X-Trans or a current or immediately past generation Sony sensor). X-Trans seems to "punch above its weight" in my experience - its images are better than most 16mp APS-C sensors (although not quite up to 24 MP APS-C). Modern micro 4/3 is approaching the quality of 16 MP APS-C, but doesn't have the dynamic range of the 16 MP Sony sensors, and is somewhat noisier (it may be closer to a Canon sensor, which have fallen behind the current Sonys). The 36 MP Sony sensor found in the A7r and the D800(e)/D810 is in a class by itself on really large prints (but is tricky to get right - it's very sensitive to shutter shock, etc.).






Logged

Mjollnir

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 547
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2015, 10:34:25 pm »

To my eye, there IS a difference (visible on certain high-DR subjects at any size, always visible by 16x24) between even the best of Micro 4/3 and a really good APS-C sensor (X-Trans or a current or immediately past generation Sony sensor). X-Trans seems to "punch above its weight" in my experience - its images are better than most 16mp APS-C sensors (although not quite up to 24 MP APS-C). Modern micro 4/3 is approaching the quality of 16 MP APS-C, but doesn't have the dynamic range of the 16 MP Sony sensors, and is somewhat noisier (it may be closer to a Canon sensor, which have fallen behind the current Sonys). The 36 MP Sony sensor found in the A7r and the D800(e)/D810 is in a class by itself on really large prints (but is tricky to get right - it's very sensitive to shutter shock, etc.).

Well, I guess that's why there are different printers and PP processes.  To my eye, the GH4 matches the Fuji until you start cranking up the ISO, and it exceeds the quality/range of any Canon APS-C. 

Don't know anything bout the A7r or D800.  I've never used either.
Logged

AlterEgo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1995
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2015, 11:34:47 pm »

Well, I guess that's why there are different printers and PP processes.  To my eye, the GH4 matches the Fuji until you start cranking up the ISO
Fuji stops using real gain (analog and/or digital multiplication in camera) just after nominal ISO1600 and switches to instructions (tag in a raw file) for a raw converter to push exposure digitally, so if you are a raw shooter you shall not compare other cameras with Fuji past nominal ISO1600 and moreover - as ISO/gain is not a part of exposure itself you shall simply compare cameras at the same exposure = exposure time + aperture in T-stops and select the optimal gains for both cameras individually (and that will not be the same nominal ISOs for both cameras in many cases)
Logged

rdonson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3263
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2015, 07:47:27 am »

Fuji stops using real gain (analog and/or digital multiplication in camera) just after nominal ISO1600 and switches to instructions (tag in a raw file) for a raw converter to push exposure digitally, so if you are a raw shooter you shall not compare other cameras with Fuji past nominal ISO1600 and moreover - as ISO/gain is not a part of exposure itself you shall simply compare cameras at the same exposure = exposure time + aperture in T-stops and select the optimal gains for both cameras individually (and that will not be the same nominal ISOs for both cameras in many cases)

Wow, that's a very interesting piece of information.  Where did you learn that?
Logged
Regards,
Ron

brianrybolt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 625
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2015, 07:48:29 am »

+1

AlterEgo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1995
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2015, 09:54:38 am »

Wow, that's a very interesting piece of information.  Where did you learn that?
you can see PDR tests @ http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/ - do note that ISO there are "nominal" (=as dialed in camera) ISO vs Ssat ISO (as used by DxOMark to make things equal and remove differences that manufacturers are allowed to have, based on ISO standards oriented on brightness of OCC JPG) that shall be used by a raw shooter if he thinks to compare things... so the graphs shall be shifted accordingly, but you can clearly see at which nominal ISO Fuji cameras stop doing anything analog and/or digital with data before writing in raw file - afterwards they add instructions for a raw converter to push exposure in conversion... some cameras (think some Sigmas or some/most MF backs) do not do anything in camera - all their ISO are ISO-by-tag
Logged

rdonson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3263
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2015, 02:55:41 pm »

you can see PDR tests @ http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/ - do note that ISO there are "nominal" (=as dialed in camera) ISO vs Ssat ISO (as used by DxOMark to make things equal and remove differences that manufacturers are allowed to have, based on ISO standards oriented on brightness of OCC JPG) that shall be used by a raw shooter if he thinks to compare things... so the graphs shall be shifted accordingly, but you can clearly see at which nominal ISO Fuji cameras stop doing anything analog and/or digital with data before writing in raw file - afterwards they add instructions for a raw converter to push exposure in conversion... some cameras (think some Sigmas or some/most MF backs) do not do anything in camera - all their ISO are ISO-by-tag

Thanks so much for sharing this.  I found it VERY interesting.
Logged
Regards,
Ron

AlterEgo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1995
Re: How Long is a Piece of String? Fuji X-T1 - Sony A7 II
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2015, 03:32:04 pm »

Thanks so much for sharing this.  I found it VERY interesting.

the guy is a prolific tester and well known in the circles - he is quite active @ dprview forums if you have questions or challenges, there is a section devoted solely to a science and technology of photography (thinks sensors, raws, formulas) - no art allowed !!!
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up