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Author Topic: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions  (Read 24158 times)

Theodoros

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2015, 10:26:41 am »

Hi,

Could be or could be not. Leica's own lenses are also optimized for small sensor 45x30mm. The Pentax is originally a 645 design, so the older lenses are intended for the larger format.

Best regards
Erik


Leica is totally different than any other maker.... They do have a large sensor DSLR like Pentax does, but they also are an MFDB maker. They do have view cameras, but they luck an MF SLR platform to offer as a system with their backs... It looks natural (and obvious) that a  "bridging" platform is needed... Hasselblad (Contax 645 too) does provide that platform and the lenses are fully dedicated (via Leica's adapter) to work on Leica-S.... Hence, it looks sensible if Hasselblad (given their financial position) will be a "target" for Leica. It would tighten research and development costs, it would attract more customers, it would widen offerings to customers and would increase the existing base market further... Such a decision (to add Hasselblad in the group of companies) would establish Leica as the undeniable leader for professional photography.
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BJL

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will Sony or CMOSIS make a CMOS sensor bigger than 44x33mm?
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2015, 02:39:03 pm »

I believe that Sony won't care to make a different MF sensor in size than 33x44 cm... I say this because I also believe that Pentax is optimizing their lenses for 33x44 size, if they use a larger sensor, it will probably affect their Lens line and there will be a redesigned pentaprism viewfinder needed.

I also believe that if a larger image area sensor will appear, it will come from Cmosis. ...

I agree with part of this:
a) If Pentax stays with 44x33mm first, there _might_ not be enough volume for Sony to be interested in a larger "645 full frame" sensor

b) If Sony does not bite, a smaller scale fab-less custom sensor designer like CMOSIS might fill the gap for bigger CMOS sensors, just as it has for Leica.  I take it that Leica works with CMOSIS rather than Sony because the latter is not interested, not because CMOSIS sensors are superior -- because they aren't; their sensors seem overall inferior to Sony's offerings.

But:
c) I am not sure that Pentax is so critical to overall DMF sensor volume; does anyone have relative sales volume numbers for the various MF products?  Doug?  Yaya?  David?

d) Pentax has mostly kept its "645" lens line-up compatible with full 645 format, perhaps because it still caters to a loyal (mostly Japanese) market for using these lenses on its old 645 film cameras.  For example, the Pentax-D FA 645 55mm f/2.8 is designed for full 645 format coverage, and thus is a moderate wide-angle design, despite its primary role being as a normal lens for 44x33mm digital format.  See the Angle of View data at
http://www.us.ricoh-imaging.com/camera-lenses/smc_PENTAX_D_FA_645_55mm_F2.8_AL_(IF)_SDM_AW#!product-specs

The exceptions, covering only 44x33mm format, are just the two of seventeen "645" lenses at the site http://www.us.ricoh-imaging.com/camera-lenses that are designated "DA 645" as opposed to "D FA 645" or the old "FA 645": the 25/4 and 28-45/4.5.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 02:40:35 pm by BJL »
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Theodoros

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Re: will Sony or CMOSIS make a CMOS sensor bigger than 44x33mm?
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2015, 03:26:27 pm »

I agree with part of this:
a) If Pentax stays with 44x33mm first, there _might_ not be enough volume for Sony to be interested in a larger "645 full frame" sensor

b) If Sony does not bite, a smaller scale fab-less custom sensor designer like CMOSIS might fill the gap for bigger CMOS sensors, just as it has for Leica.  I take it that Leica works with CMOSIS rather than Sony because the latter is not interested, not because CMOSIS sensors are superior -- because they aren't; their sensors seem overall inferior to Sony's offerings.

But:
c) I am not sure that Pentax is so critical to overall DMF sensor volume; does anyone have relative sales volume numbers for the various MF products?  Doug?  Yaya?  David?

d) Pentax has mostly kept its "645" lens line-up compatible with full 645 format, perhaps because it still caters to a loyal (mostly Japanese) market for using these lenses on its old 645 film cameras.  For example, the Pentax-D FA 645 55mm f/2.8 is designed for full 645 format coverage, and thus is a moderate wide-angle design, despite its primary role being as a normal lens for 44x33mm digital format.  See the Angle of View data at
http://www.us.ricoh-imaging.com/camera-lenses/smc_PENTAX_D_FA_645_55mm_F2.8_AL_(IF)_SDM_AW#!product-specs

The exceptions, covering only 44x33mm format, are just the two of seventeen "645" lenses at the site http://www.us.ricoh-imaging.com/camera-lenses that are designated "DA 645" as opposed to "D FA 645" or the old "FA 645": the 25/4 and 28-45/4.5.

Agree back, Pentax production volumes is the key for Sony's MF sensor productions... We have yet to see Cmosis newer designs, there is no Cmosis MF sensor yet for us to compare with Sony, furthermore, Leica is surely interested on going ahead for image quality and claims that they are self involved in the new sensors, the relationship with Cmosis is definitely not the same as the rest of the MF makers with Sony.

 OTOH, Leica surely would want Sinar's future backs to use exclusive top performance sensors of their own and they will surely expand this to a (possible) new camera platform within the group of companies.

As of sales (availability of which I also agree that could help future thoughts), I doubt we can have reliable information... Leica's president claimed in an interview that they have 25% of the MF market with the S-series, I doubt that though, especially after P645Z's price...

My impression is that MF sales are dropping steadily year by year and the main reason for that is the shrinkage of MFDB share than the "large sensor DSLRs", where most pros use by sharing them between their MF cameras and their view/tech cameras... Many pros have decided to "stick" with their older backs that do the same as modern ones than investing on modern which they judge wouldn't add (or add little) to their work. I think that the Higher end MFDBs are mostly consumed by wealthy amateurs for fun/passion...

Image circle with Pentax is one thing... lens performance with larger sensors is another.
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Paul2660

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2015, 03:42:29 pm »

I can't see Pentax driving a full frame 645 CMOS 40 x 55  chip, all their current modern glass is designed around the 1:3 cropped sensor as I understand it.  I can't see them coming out with another set of lenses for a full frame.  I can see Hasselblad and Phase One working with Sony or Dalsa on a full frame, in fact with them it's not a question of if, but when.  You can be assured that full frame 645 CMOS is coming, and most likely in a Phase One back, by 2016.  Much sooner than Pentax.  Sure the older Pentax 645 lenses will work, but they are dated and most likely able to handle the larger resolution, but again they might. 

The larger question for me on a Phase back with a full frame CMOS is how the chip will be designed, i.e. will it allow better use of current tech lenses which are already strained in movements with the current 50MP chip (IQ150/250).  A larger chip with same pixel design would have a denser pitch and thus I feel not work at all with the Rodenstock retro focus glass currently being use.  Sure the Phase One/Mamiya/Schneider LS lenses will be fine and that may be the market that they are more interested in.  Schneider has supposedly already stated that they are done with any future designs so they also may know what coming.  This is also why I have followed the CMOSIS design that Lecia has as it seems like a nice compromise, but they have yet to take to a full 645 (digital) that I am aware and they also use a 3:2 ratio with their current DSLR's as I understand it not the 4:3 that traditional 645 uses.

Paul
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Theodoros

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2015, 03:52:33 pm »

I can't see Pentax driving a full frame 645 CMOS 40 x 55  chip, all their current modern glass is designed around the 1:3 cropped sensor as I understand it.  I can't see them coming out with another set of lenses for a full frame.  I can see Hasselblad and Phase One working with Sony or Dalsa on a full frame, in fact with them it's not a question of if, but when.  You can be assured that full frame 645 CMOS is coming, and most likely in a Phase One back, by 2016.  Much sooner than Pentax.  Sure the older Pentax 645 lenses will work, but they are dated and most likely able to handle the larger resolution, but again they might. 

The larger question for me on a Phase back with a full frame CMOS is how the chip will be designed, i.e. will it allow better use of current tech lenses which are already strained in movements with the current 50MP chip (IQ150/250).  A larger chip with same pixel design would have a denser pitch and thus I feel not work at all with the Rodenstock retro focus glass currently being use.  Sure the Phase One/Mamiya/Schneider LS lenses will be fine and that may be the market that they are more interested in.  Schneider has supposedly already stated that they are done with any future designs so they also may know what coming.  This is also why I have followed the CMOSIS design that Lecia has as it seems like a nice compromise, but they have yet to take to a full 645 (digital) that I am aware and they also use a 3:2 ratio with their current DSLR's as I understand it not the 4:3 that traditional 645 uses.

Paul


Agree in most, but Leica will inevitably come with a larger sensor... Even if they aren't investing on a new platform soon, they have the Sinarbacks to consider... lets not forget how important LV is with view/tech cameras....
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Paul2660

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2015, 04:12:22 pm »

Agree in most, but Leica will inevitably come with a larger sensor... Even if they aren't investing on a new platform soon, they have the Sinarbacks to consider... lets not forget how important LV is with view/tech cameras....

Good point, I always forget about the fact they have the Sinar backs and cameras now. 

Paul
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Theodoros

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2015, 04:34:41 pm »

Good point, I always forget about the fact they have the Sinar backs and cameras now. 

Paul

In fact I believe that they already do (work on a larger sensor). IMO they are smart enough to design a large sensor and then work on cropping it down to smaller formats than work on different sensors for each format they offer. Cropping down a sensor is much easier than expanding an (digital) image area. One only has to keep one basic design on such a case and only work on the existence or not, or the shape of microlenses to adapt the sensor's performance to optimum for different cameras... It's their choice of using 6 microns pitch on S-007 that leads me to think that this is the case.... It would lead to a high resolution large sensor, a 37.5 one for the S-series (announced already) and 24mp crop for the M series... All with minimum research and minimal possible cost involved for developing/producing.
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BJL

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I can't see Pentax driving a full frame 645 CMOS 40 x 55  chip, all their current modern glass is designed around the 1:3 cropped sensor as I understand it.
I also think it quite possible that Pentax will stay with the relatively less expensive 44x33mm format, but you are a somewhat wrong about its 645 lenses: looking at the 17 "645" lenses listed at http://www.us.ricoh-imaging.com/camera-lenses
- 13  are designated FA 645 or FA* 645 which I believe  are "legacy" film era models, so covering the full 70mm image circle obviously,
- 2 are designated D FA 645, which are newer models "designed for digital" but also designed for use with 645 film camera and so covering that image circle, and
- 2 are designated DA 645, designed exclusively for digital cameras in 44x33mm format.

So perhaps the fairer conclusion is that Pentax has simply not done a lot of new "digital era" MF lens designs at all, so has not greatly committed itself to one digital format or another.

It probably comes down to how good the older film era lenses are:
- If a good portion of those "FA" lenses are good enough to compete when used with a more expensive "645 full frame" model, the Pentax system is ready;
- If instead not many of them are, leaving mostly just the two "D FA" lenses worth using with a larger sensor, then Ricoh is probably not going to make the massive investment in new lens designs needed to chase Phase One and Hasselblad into that larger format realm.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2015, 06:37:37 pm »

Indeed, and since I understand that they have stopped production of the 25mm f4, they may have only one lens not covering the legacy 6x45 size.

In fact it could be that they stopped prod of the 25mm f4 precisely because they realized the mistake they made working with a smallish MF sensor and wanted to avoid an APS-C like situation where customers refuse to move to larger size/ higher margin devices because of their investment in small image circle lenses.

Future will tell but to my eyes 44x33 is just too close to 24x36 to make sense in the long run. It very much feels like a tactical solution, which doesn't mean it has no value of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 08:20:12 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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uaiomex

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2015, 12:15:45 am »

"So if it's just 44X33... seems like an awful waste of space".
Paraphrasing the great Carl Sagan.
 :)


Indeed, and since I understand that they have stopped production of the 25mm f4, they may have only one lens not covering the legacy 6x45 size.

In fact it could be that they stopped prod of the 25mm f4 precisely because they realized the mistake they made working with a smallish MF sensor and wanted to avoid an APS-C like situation where customers refuse to move to larger size/ higher margin devices because of their investment in small image circle lenses.

Future will tell but to my eyes 44x33 is just too close to 24x36 to make sense in the long run. It very much feels like a tactical solution, which doesn't mean it has no value of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2015, 03:47:25 am »

Guys, could we attempt and not hijack Chiek's thread, but just discus the test results?

Cheers,
Bart
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2015, 05:30:05 pm »

Hi,

What I have seen from Chiek's tests I would say that both the multishoot and the 5Ds is sharper than the CF39 in single shoot. This observation was consistent in my observation for all image pairs I have viewed. This relates to the tests with zoom lenses on both cameras.

Plenty of variables, and I would really like to see raw files from the Canon.

Would I be a Canon shooter, I would preorder the 5Ds. Unfortunately I am not a Canon shooter but using Sony and Hasselblad V-series. So I am waiting for Sony to release a high MP camera with EFSC and a nice user interface, assuming something called A9.

Best regards
Erik




Guys, could we attempt and not hijack Chiek's thread, but just discus the test results?

Cheers,
Bart
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chiek

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2015, 01:09:17 pm »

Just upload 4 files
5ds default sharpen / No sharpen
CF-39ms default sharpen / No sharpen

You can download this link, last 4 files.
http://chiek.viewbook.com/5ds

Remember, It's canon BETA version. so It may be changeable for improve functions.

5ds JPG file size is approx 20MB but 39ms(single/multi) JPG file is approx 4~5MB.
5ds developed from canon DPP4, CF-39MS from PHOCUS latest version.
Raw file sizes are similar (5ds : 56MB, CF-39MS : 54MB, CF-39MS multi : 198MB)
Why???
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 01:21:55 pm by chiek »
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chiek imaging, in Seoul, SOUTH-KOREA.
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major job is products shot, especially for electronic products.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2015, 01:29:01 pm »

Just upload 4 files
5ds default sharpen / No sharpen
CF-39ms default sharpen / No sharpen

You can download this link, last 4 files.
http://chiek.viewbook.com/5ds

Thanks, I'll have a look.

Quote
Remember, It's canon BETA version. so It may be changeable for improve functions.

5ds JPG file size is approx 20MB but 39ms(single/multi) JPG file is approx 4~5MB.
5ds developed from canon DPP4, CF-39MS from PHOCUS latest version.
Raw file sizes are similar (5ds : 56MB, CF-39MS : 54MB, CF-39MS multi : 198MB)
Why???

Different JPEG compression/quality settings?

Cheers,
Bart
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2015, 09:24:59 pm »

Hi Chiek,

Thanks for the files. I looked at the unsharpened files id processed both trough ImageMagic. In this case I would say that the CF39MS (single shot) clearly wins.

Best regards
Erik


Just upload 4 files
5ds default sharpen / No sharpen
CF-39ms default sharpen / No sharpen

You can download this link, last 4 files.
http://chiek.viewbook.com/5ds

Remember, It's canon BETA version. so It may be changeable for improve functions.

5ds JPG file size is approx 20MB but 39ms(single/multi) JPG file is approx 4~5MB.
5ds developed from canon DPP4, CF-39MS from PHOCUS latest version.
Raw file sizes are similar (5ds : 56MB, CF-39MS : 54MB, CF-39MS multi : 198MB)
Why???

« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 12:25:45 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Ken R

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2015, 09:33:12 pm »

Hi Chiek,

Thnaks for the files. I looked at the unsharpened files id processed both trough ImageMagic. In this case I would say that the CF39MS (single shot) clearly wins.

Best regards
Erik



The CF39 definitely looks crisper at the point of focus and IMHO has cleaner blacks and better gradations. Has a bit of false color in the fine textures but shows them nicely.

The 5DS file looks smoother in regards to detail (maybe due to the low pass filter?) and the whites and blacks are not as clean plus gradations dont look as smooth as in the CF39.

This is pixel peeping for sure but hey that is what this test is about isnt it?
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chiek

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2015, 09:47:48 pm »

Different JPEG compression/quality settings?

Both files are maximum quality JPEG.

I think 5ds pictures are more larger Depth of Field than CF-39MS because of sensor size. so more information than out-focus.

and I don't to say that 5ds files are better. Just curious and Many peoples are interesting.

I have owned digital back since 2001. started from Dicomed field pro and Leaf, Phase1 and now MS back.

Definitely, High-end capture machines are better than mid level cameras.
but technology will change all, including our emotions.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 10:12:47 pm by chiek »
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chiek imaging, in Seoul, SOUTH-KOREA.
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major job is products shot, especially for electronic products.
but interested in Landscapes and Portraits, Still-life.
my hobby is Designing camera…
www.chiek.co.kr

haefnerphoto

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2015, 10:16:59 pm »

It looks to me like the 5DS focus is off (back focused a bit) compared to the MFB.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2015, 03:08:41 am »

Both files are maximum quality JPEG.

Yes, now that I've downloaded the files, I've inspected the JPEG settings with 'JPEGsnoop', and that estimated the JPEG quality at well into the 98+ percent range for boht chrominance and Luminance, so it must be the amount of image detail compression that is possible.

Quote
I think 5ds pictures are more larger Depth of Field than CF-39MS because of sensor size. so more information than out-focus.

That could very well be a major part of it, and perhaps some differences in noise. There is also a bit of back focus on the Canon shot, it seems, so there is somewhat different detail in and out of focus.

Cheers,
Bart
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chiek

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Re: Just received 5ds and testing VS my CF-39MS in same lens conditions
« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2015, 09:30:58 pm »


There is also a bit of back focus on the Canon shot, it seems, so there is somewhat different detail in and out of focus.


Pefect enlarging live view focusing…
check attach screen shot.
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chiek imaging, in Seoul, SOUTH-KOREA.
Sinar P2, Hasselblad CFv-50c medium format and a7R systems
major job is products shot, especially for electronic products.
but interested in Landscapes and Portraits, Still-life.
my hobby is Designing camera…
www.chiek.co.kr
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