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Author Topic: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?  (Read 5925 times)

Bob_B

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I recently bought a box of Canson Platine Fibre Rag, and love the paper's finish and resulting prints. I currently use Premier Print Shield for coating my glossy prints, and it works well on that surface. I want to coat the Platine Fibre Rag, and would appreciate your comments about using the Premier spray on this semi-gloss, textured surface. If Premier isn't recommended, your recommendations are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Bob
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MHMG

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2015, 01:17:28 pm »

If you don't want to significantly alter the surface of the media, then low viscosity sprays like Premier Print Shield are the way to go. Print Shield works well on the Canson Platine, although in my own personal tests, it's a little less forgiving to user application technique than say, HN photo Rag Pearl, but with practice, you should do well and get the results you want. Print Shield is definitely compatible with Platine, provide you are using pigments not dyes. Print Shield is also rebadged under different brand names by numerous companies, so expect similar results from other low viscosity (likely Print Shield by another name) sprays such as Moab Desert Varnish, Hahnemuhle Protective Spray, etc.

Another low viscosity spray that should work well is Lascaux Fixative. It contains paraloid B72 acrylic polymer which has a long and successful history of use in art conservation. That said, a 300ml can of Lascaux fixative is even more expensive than a can of Print Shield, so be prepared for sticker shock as you track down where to buy the stuff :)

cheers,
Mark
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bill t.

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2015, 01:38:01 pm »

Have never met a gloss or semi-gloss or luster paper that didn't coat beautifully with Premier.

I have recently coated a lot of Fine Art Baryta, which has a Platine-like surface although with a little more texture and a little more gloss.  When coated with Premier it's invariably gorgeous with only a tiny increase in gloss beyond the complete elimination of the already insignificant amount of bronzing and shadow hazing present in FAB.  I have no qualms about exhibiting three times Premier coated coated FAB open face, it's at least as rugged as coated canvas and so utterly gorgeous.  And all you need is light coats.  Coated Silver Rag is another sweety.  Who needs stupid facemounting when Premier can give you organic looking surfaces that are just as rich and colorful, and quite a bit more resilient, and even trivially repairable?

Premier has a quality of solvent paints known as "burn in" which is a tendency for the paint to permeate into the painted surface, and for subsequent coats to slightly rewet and merge into the previous coats.  That's what gives solvent sprays their wonderful clarity.  There's something about the chemistry of glossy inkjet surfaces that really works well with those sprays.

FWIW, I recently tested all three fine art sprays recommended in a recent missive from a famous media manufacturer, and they all stink, both literally and practically.  Just sayin'.  The Montana spray showed promise, but there's something weird about the way it turns matte over Lucia inkset yellows.  Premier Art Print Shield, and the Hahnemuhle spray, look no further.
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Bob_B

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2015, 02:09:22 pm »

I have a confession to make: I have been using Premier to coat my Canon dye-based (Pro-100 printer) inks. I'm new to this, but so far on Red River Arctic Polar Gloss paper, with these inks, I noticed no ill effect when lightly coating three times with Premier. No smearing or running of the ink, and no change in coloration. Again, I'm new to this so... I mention this, as I note that Mark specifically mentioned using Premier on pigment, but not dye-based, inks. Comments?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 02:46:35 pm by Bob_B »
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MHMG

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2015, 02:46:10 pm »

I mention this, as I note that Mark specifically mentioned using Premier on pigment, but not dye-based, inks. Comments?

I'm just advising caution with dye-based inkjet prints. The solvent chemistry of the spray can cause further dye migration that tends to affect some media along with different colors and tones worse than others. It probably doesn't affect longevity, and indeed the finished print may well be more stable, but initial colors and tones can nonetheless be changed undesirably.

I haven't published my findings yet, but I specifically tested Print Shield and other low viscosity solvent type sprays on both RC and "traditional fiber base" type gloss/luster media printed with both Epson Claria dyes and Canon Pro-100 Chromalife 100+ dyes. What I found is that the solvents are causing some migration of the dyes. The result is unwanted color and tone changes, not always severe, but definitely reducing color gamut and visual contrast. Dark colors and tones in particular tend to lighten and desaturate a little. With pigmented inks on the same media, the sprays either leave the final image unchanged, or with very slight increase in gloss and dmax levels which most would agree is a change for the better. No so with dye prints. The changes I've noted are always in the direction of reduced Dmax plus hue changes and/or loss of chroma in various colors to varying degrees.

My findings for dye-base compatiiblity of Print Shield and other similar sprays surprised me as the sprays I've been testing are not water-based sprays. The effect is more pronounced on some media compared to others, but it's been there on every sample I've tried to one degree or another. The amount visual change may be acceptable to you, but it's definitely not in the direction of enhancing colors and contrast. A good way to check for this compatibility issue  is to create an image target with an elongated bar pattern of colors and tone, for example, the colors of the Macbeth color checker target. Use photoshop to elongate the color patches into longer bars, cover one half of the printed pattern, spray, let dry, then examine the sprayed versus unsprayed line of demarcation. You will likely see some colors and tones are just noticeably changed, while others are more changed, perhaps some changed very little at all, but over the whole array of colors, especially areas of higher ink load, you will more than likely see some reduced color gamut and loss of contrast. Again, the amount of change is not necessarily extreme for many observers, and may be acceptable to you, and you could even create a custom ICC profile that somewhat adjusts for the shift, but it's there nonetheless.

cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 02:50:31 pm by MHMG »
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Bob_B

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2015, 02:55:23 pm »

Mark: Thanks for your detailed explanation. As I said, I'm new to all this. My next printer will in all probability use pigment inks, but for now I'll have to make due with the Pro-100 and its Chromalife 100+ dye inks. Is there a spray that can be used on these inks that does not alter their dmax or cause loss of gamut or contrast? Might it just be better not to coat at all? I am not look for archival images, I just want to add protection that retains the texture of the paper and does not involve framing with a pane of glass or plastic.
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MHMG

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2015, 03:23:23 pm »

Mark: Thanks for your detailed explanation. As I said, I'm new to all this. My next printer will in all probability use pigment inks, but for now I'll have to make due with the Pro-100 and its Chromalife 100+ dye inks. Is there a spray that can be used on these inks that does not alter their dmax or cause loss of gamut or contrast? Might it just be better not to coat at all? I am not look for archival images, I just want to add protection that retains the texture of the paper and does not involve framing with a pane of glass or plastic.

I also own a Pro-100. It's  a great little printer that delivers gorgeous image quality especially on RC type luster/gloss media, but also on various fine art and "traditional fiber" type media.  No need to apologize about using dyes. They have their own aesthetic which really isn't matched by pigment printers (e.g., total freedom from gloss differential and bronzing, plus higher DOF, i.e., what imaging scientists call "depth of image" which has to do with the translucency of the light penetrating the image bearing layer and then reflecting back through that layer again) So, dyes definitely have their place in photography and fine art. However, the prints also generally have less resistance to light, humidity, and air borne pollution. If that weren't the case, I expect nobody would be using pigment printers except where extreme outdoor display environments would be encountered. No free lunch :)

I'm still looking for more suitable protective sprays, but I haven't gotten much further than what I have already shared so far. The Lascaux Fixative spray is the least invasive one I've tried so far, but even it isn't perfect, and it sure is pricey. I need to try some of the aqueous based "varnishes", but most of those have an ammonia component needed to emulsify the acrylic polymer into solution, and that may be a problem for dye migration as well. That said, nothing ventured, nothing gained, so I have more experiments to try.

I believe we can double the light and gas fade resistance of the print if we can find suitable combinations of media and overcoat. And at that level, Chomalife 100+ dyes on select media (not to be confused with Chromalife 100 which had a very fugitive black dye that undermined the entire product's overall performance) will give uncoated pigment prints a run for their money in terms of light fastness on display.  Photo oxidation is what is causing both dyes and pigments to fade upon exposure to light, so if we can reduce the oxidation pathway, we can really improve the longevity. I'm working on it. I am personally motivated by my own Pro-100 prints to crack that nut ;D

best,
Mark
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deanwork

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2015, 03:32:56 pm »

I use the Hahnemuhle spray varnish on all my Platine prints, and I do some big ones with no issues. But this is with pigment inksets.

I used to use the Lascaux spray for bw because there had been talk that it didn't reduce the dmax as much on matte media. I didn't really find that to be the case. All of these look the same to me on gloss fiber media in regard to removing unwanted differential and bronzing with pigments as well as surface protection.

The Platine is very sensitive to scratching without coating so I always spray them. This paper can also fake in high density areas which I don't see on the Hahnemuhle fiber gloss papers I use.

I'll tell you one thing about the Lascaux. It is toxic. I couldn't stand being around that stuff, it is strong, even with a respirator on. It says right on the can, beware this substance can cause brain damage, and I believe it.

john
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stockjock

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2015, 01:46:58 pm »

Have never met a gloss or semi-gloss or luster paper that didn't coat beautifully with Premier.

I have recently coated a lot of Fine Art Baryta, which has a Platine-like surface although with a little more texture and a little more gloss.  When coated with Premier it's invariably gorgeous with only a tiny increase in gloss beyond the complete elimination of the already insignificant amount of bronzing and shadow hazing present in FAB.  I have no qualms about exhibiting three times Premier coated coated FAB open face, it's at least as rugged as coated canvas and so utterly gorgeous.  And all you need is light coats.  Coated Silver Rag is another sweety.  Who needs stupid facemounting when Premier can give you organic looking surfaces that are just as rich and colorful, and quite a bit more resilient, and even trivially repairable?


I have been following this thread as well as the one on creating a dust free environment with some interest.  I was just invited to display a couple of my photos in a group museum show and I was thinking of having them mounted and then framed unglazed with a shadow box.  I will probably print on Canson Platine Fibre Rag but will test the Canson Rag Photographique and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308 just to be sure the Platine is best.  Since the Canson does have some gloss differential and I like the idea of using a spray to even that out as well as provide protection.  So my questions are:

1) When you are talking about the Platine taking the Premier Print Shield well can I assume you are talking about the canned sprays rather than the HVLP aqueous version?  I don't think I am up to buying a bunch of spray equipment and creating a whole spray booth just for a couple of prints.

2) Are three coats optimal?

3) Is keeping the print as free of dust and defects as difficult using the cans as it is with the HVLP aqueous coats?  Same tips as in the other thread?  The prints will be approximately 22x30" I think and printed on the iPF8400.

4) Is there a difference between the Premier and the Hahnemuhle protective sprays?  There seems to be some confusion in this thread about whether the Hahnemuhle is just a rebranded version of Print Shield.

Another other suggestions for the newbie to coating would be appreciated LOL.

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bill t.

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2015, 02:59:54 pm »

^The canned and HVLP versions of Premie Art Print Shield seem to be identical.  With HVLP you need a smallish cap aperture to get the atomization right.  With the cans the atomization is so fine and wispy you must spray under almost windless conditions.  Spray at about 10 inches from the art with the cans.  The can sprays a round pattern, I would have greatly preferred an oval spray.  The round pattern forces you to keep the cans moving in a roundish sub-pattern to adequately spread out the spray pattern, and each "coat" should include perhaps three passes across the print, one vertical, one horizontal, and one at an angle.  Three such coats work very well for me, and for Fine Art Baryta and Silver Rag result in a slight increase in glossiness while producing a very resilient surface.  I have not had any issues with gloss differential.

I have not tested a wide range of papers, and my assumption that Platine would coat well is based on comparing a sample pack sheet with Fine Art Baryta, they have very similar surfaces.  The properties I like about Premier only apply to glossy papers.  I can not get a truly resilient surface on matte papers which are still  scuff prone after several coats, and which suffer a slight raise of d-max, and which can not be raised to a gloss the way that is possible with aqueous coatings.

I do not like the surface produced by Premier on "silky" and luster surfaces nearly as much as on full gloss paper.  It's just a peeve of mine having to do with how surface reflections resolve on those kinds of media in display situations, either before or after coating.

Dust management is very easy with Premier.  After each coat is completely dry, which takes maybe 2 minutes at 6000 ft altitude in arrid New Mexico, one simply wipes one's hand back and forth on the surface until it feels smooth.  Dust does not easily adhere to the thin coats.  It's so easy.  Even dust that has been preset for more than 1 coat swipes off easily.  The thickness of 3 Premier coats is probably less than 1 aqueous coat, while still being impressively tough.

The only reason for a paint booth is to control the overspray.  The cans generate much more overspray than HVLP applied coats, even though both produce a lot.  It's sort of like old-fashioned spray guns versus HVLP.  I can not over emphasize how noxious solvent overspray is, if somebody without a mask walked into an enclosed room where you had been spraying they could easily be harmed, and there are even explosion risks.  You have to very pro actively manage the overspray.  Lacking a proper spray booth,  work outside with a 2 mph wind at your back, wearing a mask with an organic filter, and with nobody present for at least 100 feet downwind.  It's a problem.  I am installing a vent system with a spray particle system that exhausts the overspray high above ground level, in a place where the prevailing wind gives more than 2000 feet of horizontal clearance to the next human presence.

I suspect Hahn and Premier both rebrand another OEM spray, I don't know what it is.

If you wish to proceed on this path please read every label on the materials and exercise every precaution on the side of abundant safety.  And please note that safety recommendations that apply to aqueous coatings are generally not adequate for solvent coatings.  Solvent is a whole different animal.  In particular, the build up of overspray in poorly ventilated situations is a very serious issue.
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stockjock

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2015, 07:08:40 pm »

Thank you for such an informative and detailed reply to my questions.  I really appreciate it.  I have bought a can of Moab Desert Varnish (all that is available locally) and I am going to give that a try.  Respirator won't get here until next week so if the weather holds I'll hope for a 2 MPH wind and give spraying outside a shot.
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Bob_B

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 12:44:43 pm »

FWIW:
     I coated four 13x19 Canson Platine Fibre prints with Premier ArtPrint Shield over the last two weekends. I did the spraying outdoors, which was a pain as there was a breeze, but better that than inhaling that stuff. Overall, I like this spray: it's easy to apply and dries fast. Dust that got caught between coats could be quickly removed without harm to the finish, and I liked that a lot. I used four coats sprayed perpendicular to one another, which may be overkill. I could not detect changes in the texture of the paper nor did I see a noticeable change in the dye-based colors on my prints. (Doesn't mean there wasn't a change, but it wasn't apparent.) I guess the only downside is that I went through a can of the Premier spray coating two prints. This might be due to my caution in not overspraying.

     One question remains: Now that the prints are coated, what is the best way to store them prior to mounting?
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hugowolf

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 08:28:41 pm »

... I guess the only downside is that I went through a can of the Premier spray coating two prints. This might be due to my caution in not overspraying.
Then you are using way, way too much spray. Think 30-40, not 2.

You want the light initial coat to seal the surface, then two or three more light coats.

One question remains: Now that the prints are coated, what is the best way to store them prior to mounting?

The same way that you would store them otherwise, except the coating is much more brittle, so don't even think about rolls/tubes.

Brian A
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Bob_B

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2015, 09:22:52 am »

Thanks. I guess I am heavy-handed. BTW, what do you mean by 30-40?
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jferrari

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 10:56:54 am »

Thanks. I guess I am heavy-handed. BTW, what do you mean by 30-40?

30 to 40 prints the size you've been coating. If you put too much of that stuff on there it's more likely to crack or craze over time. Apply only light coats to mitigate this issue.    - Jim
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MHMG

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 11:15:43 am »

Then you are using way, way too much spray. Think 30-40, not 2.

You want the light initial coat to seal the surface, then two or three more light coats.

The same way that you would store them otherwise, except the coating is much more brittle, so don't even think about rolls/tubes.

Brian A

On glossy/luster media like Platine or IGFS, you will need to put two, sometimes three reasonably heavy coats of Print Shield to truly seal the surface and eliminate nearly all bronzing and differential gloss. You want to see a slightly "wet" looking film forming then soon disappearing into the print surface as you are evenly guiding the spray can over the surface. Spraying with the print in a vertical position (i.e. taped or pinned to a wall rather than laying flat on a table) helps keep the dirt and debris accumulation on the surface to a minimum, but that said, it becomes a fine line between not applying enough spray and applying too much spray where the wet film begins to show sag lines before it has a chance to dry.  Print Shield is a very low viscosity spray, meaning it takes lots of solvent to lay down only very low amounts of the actual acrylic polymer that forms the dry film thickness, and the low viscosity also makes the application thickness tolerances more finicky.  The OP's experience of using nearly a whole can to coat just four 13x19 prints sounds about par for the course with products like Print Shield when applied to glossy/luster media. At best you may only get 5 or 6 finished prints that size. The low viscosity sprays like Print Shield are a different animal compared to aqueous-base acrylic dispersions that are typically rolled on or sprayed with HVLP spray guns.

Don't breath the fumes, but do take a deep gulp after your spray session is all over because you will soon find that solvent spray cans like Print Shield, Hahenmuhle Protective Spray, Moab Desert Varnish, etc., are more expensive per unit area of finished print surface than all the expensive OEM ink consumed ;D.

cheers,
Mark
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« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 11:26:02 am by MHMG »
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acrylic

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2015, 05:11:19 pm »

Hi Mark,

When u are talking about dye migration, does it occur when you apply the spray and then it does not "migrate" anymore or is it a long term process ?

Thank you
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 05:21:24 pm by acrylic »
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MHMG

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2015, 10:14:32 am »

Hi Mark,

When u are talking about dye migration, does it occur when you apply the spray and then it does not "migrate" anymore or is it a long term process ?

Thank you


The dyes migrate immediately while the print is still wet from the spray. Some color blends move more than others, and the effects are media dependent as well. I had posted a PDF in another thread on sprays for glossy prints a few days ago. The PDF shows an example of this observed color change due to dye migration soon after the coating has dried. The sample isn't the worst nor is it the best result, kind of typical actually. You might want to also read that other thread. Some good information there. here's a link to the thread: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=98956.0

and here's a link to the PDF attachment:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=98956.0;attach=121128

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 10:17:20 am by MHMG »
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Mike Sellers

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Re: What spray to preserve the finish on Canson Platine Fibre Rag?
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2015, 12:24:57 pm »

Hey Bill,
Now I know why the ozone layer has developed a hole over your house. ;D
Mike
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