Dry mount: Hot vs. Cold mount

[disneytoy]

Hello!

I'm preparing a show of some 24x36" , I'm trying to keep the mounting framing costs down. I was looking at a cold mount eliminator. I'm printing on Epson Glossy 250. Not sure of my substrate yet. The photos will be bleed and float off the rear of the frame 1/4-1/2"

I am considering getting an inexpensive manual cold eliminator for mounting.

What are the pros and conds of cold lamination material vs hot?

Can an inexpensive manual roll laminator do a good job? This is low volume. Example i printed 3 pieces last night. So i don't need speed.

Thanks

Maxi

Example of my finished goal.

[DeanChriss]

AFAIK, some potential issues with inexpensive forms of cold mounting are the possibility of air bubbles under the print and potential long term issues with the adhesive used. Hot mounting (aka dry mounting) is very unlikely to produce any air bubbles under the print, it is absolutely permanent, and it has withstood the test of time.

[bill t.]

Important concept: don't think any of this will be easy until after you have some experience with it, and you have wasted some materials, and you have sworn some mighty oaths.  Your first attempts will not be a walk in the park, and the results may not be pretty.

Yes, the cheap laminators on ebay can probably do the job, if the particular one you get is not a lemon.  The trick is learning to adjust them correctly, which is much harder to do on those cheap laminators than on a good one.  For mounting 24" prints you would want about 25.5" wide adhesive, and a 29" wide roller laminator.  Look for a laminator that has "feet" on the two fold down panels, because those infeed and outfeed tables will be wider and more useful than the shorter infeed and outfeed tables on the latest crop of cheap laminators without those feet.

As for hot dry mounting with drymount tissue, versus cold adhesive mounting, it all depends.  Using extremely rare perfect technique, a dry mounted print on a high quality substrate will probably stay down longer than an adhesive mounted print, but variations in operator skill levels might switch that around.  Drymounting is limited in the range of materials it can attach, for instance you can't drymount to PVC.  For packages like the one shown in the photo, adhesive mounting would be the better choice, or at least the more practical choice.  When working with adhesives, be sure you are working in a nice warm room above 75F, with all the materials at the same temperature.  BTW "laminating" is when apply a clear sheet over a print, it's not mounting.

In your picture we see (I think) a photo mounted on a thin panel, on a spacer, mounted on a larger panel, sunken into a shallow floater frame.

The photo is mounted on a panel like Masonite, or Gator, or Dibond, or possibly even 3mm Sintra (aka PVC).  The print may be wrapped around the edge, hard to tell.  You wouldn't be able to wrap RC paper, so the closest you could come is perhaps black, 3mm PVC or 3/16 Gator.  The edge of black PVC might look nicer.  Since the print and its spacer support will be attached to the back-most panel, you probably wouldn't want to use something as heavy as Dibond or Masonite for the print and spacer, although you could.  BTW 3mm PVC can be cleanly and relatively easily cut with a utility knife and a clamped-down straight edge, but 6mm PVC is a royal pita and weights a lot.

The print is floated on a slightly smaller spacer panel.  I will guess the print and it's back panel are adhesive mounted together, and then that assembly is adhesive mounted onto the larger back panel.  If the print is mounted on 3mm PVC, keep the spacer panel size close to the print panel size, to avoid flex in the unsupported parts of the print panel.

I have some opinions about what that frame should be, but I won't share them because what works for me might not work for anybody else.

The large backing panel could be anything that's nice and rigid.  You'll have three large panels, each contracting and expanding to its own music, with two layers of adhesive or glue holding them together, so make sure you do everything as wonderfully as possible, and good luck.

[disneytoy]

Bill!

Great information. You answered even more than I asked. Haven't used PVC before but will give it a try. I have experience with drymounting back in my darkroom days, but not at larger sizes.

I have to make some cost related compromises for this project, that will go in a Children's Museum. All out of my pocket. I have a 9890 so not a big deal on the prints. But all the extras add up on 25 or so pieces.

Thanks again for your help

Maxi

[disneytoy]

I see the 3mm black PVC also comes with the self stick adhesive. What are your thoughts on that? That would be one less point of failure for me if the cold mount is already bubble free on the PVC?

Or not a good option, can you ring in on a cold mount brand you'd like for PVC + Epson Glossy 250 paper.

Thanks again.

I think I have some 6mm white and black Sintra here somewhere. I remember how heavy it was.

[Geraldo Garcia]

Bill said pretty much everything I would say and more.

I will just add a quick info about the PVC panel that most people don't know and may be a potential issue in some cases. PVC stands for Polyvinyl chloride, a polymer that is well known and widely used. During its life a piece of PVC will age and some molecules will collapse, usually the most external will go first. That is quite normal, the problem is that the released Hydrogen atoms will bond with the chlorine atoms forming hydrochloric acid.

Yes, that is right. PVC panels will continually release very small amounts of hydrochloric acid on the back of your print. The amount is so small that it is considered safe for things that are not intended to last more than a decade, but continuous contact for longer periods may lead into acidic contamination of the piece. That is why PVC is a "no-no" from preservation standpoint.

[jferrari]

That is why PVC is a "no-no" from preservation standpoint.

Unless of course you bury it in a landfill where it will last for 450 years!    (Which is really the only place newspapers are archival...)

[Geraldo Garcia]

Unless of course you bury it in a landfill where it will last for 450 years!    (Which is really the only place newspapers are archival...)

The PVC itself will last for many decades for sure, no matter where. We can't say the same about the image glued to it, unfortunately.

[bill t.]

I've got some old drymounted photos more than 1/2 century old, from my high school photo class.  The high acid mounting boards are yellowed.  The prints themselves have not suffered, and due to careful technique they are still attached.  Apparently the drymount tissue is acting as a barrier.  Hopefully, the adhesive film between a PVC substrate and an inkjet print will have the same effect.

But no matter, nobody expects art to last anymore.  Ten years from now our work will look so hopelessly 2010s!  The biological wisdom of death making way for the new now applies equally to both artists and their products.  If by a miracle a piece of my work escapes the landfill, it will in 200 years be embraced as something precious, made even more valuable by the lovely patina of hydrochloric acid foxing that only time can produce.

[disneytoy]

But Epson promises 150 years with the K3 Ink? Can I get a refund from Epson in 2165, if my colors fade?

[bill t.]

^ Only if you still have your original receipt.

[Geraldo Garcia]

I've got some old drymounted photos more than 1/2 century old, from my high school photo class.  The high acid mounting boards are yellowed.  The prints themselves have not suffered, and due to careful technique they are still attached.  Apparently the drymount tissue is acting as a barrier.  Hopefully, the adhesive film between a PVC substrate and an inkjet print will have the same effect.

You are probably right about the film acting as a barrier from the acid board, but one aggravating factor about the PVC is that it releases the hydrochloric acid in the form of gas, so if the piece is framed with glass it will create an acidic atmosphere on that micro environment.  

But no matter, nobody expects art to last anymore.  Ten years from now our work will look so hopelessly 2010s!  The biological wisdom of death making way for the new now applies equally to both artists and their products.  If by a miracle a piece of my work escapes the landfill, it will in 200 years be embraced as something precious, made even more valuable by the lovely patina of hydrochloric acid foxing that only time can produce.

I could not agree more if talking about my personal work as a photographer, but as I print for others including some museums and some big names that sell for six digit values, I made a habit to warn about this issues.
But you are right, it may even become a selling argument: Your images will be slowly filtered and "instagramized" during the next years in front of your eyes!  

[disneytoy]

So, is 3mm PVC rigid enough for some 34x26" and maybe a 34x48"?

I can't find it locally, will have to order some? This would be with say another 3mm riser off the back of the frame.

[bill t.]

3mm Sintra (aka PVC) is shockingly floppy when you handle your first 4 x 8 foot sheet.  It's even more floppy than typical matboard.

What you have to do is apply some sort of rigid support on the back, like a wood or aluminum extrusion frame.  The support must come within not more than 25mm of the edge to keep the edge adequately rigid.  Normally, unbraced 3mm PVC would not be suitable for stand-alone artwork bigger than about 11 x 14.  When backed by a subframe, maybe 24 x 36 inches is reasonable.  Larger sizes would best be attached to a wall.

Dibond would be a much better choice for the large sizes you mention.  Also 6mm PVC.  Both of those are challenging to cut by hand, Dibond is the easier of the two because you can score and snap as long as both sides of the snap are large enough give a decent grip, or you know some tricks.  Generic 3mm Alupanel ACM panels and 6mm PVC both cost about $43 for a 4 x 8 foot sheet here in Albuquerque.  Every plastic and signage supplier will carry 3 and 6mm PVC.  But if have to ship it in yourself, you will have to use freight shipping where the minimum shipping charge would be in the $100 to $200 range.

You could theoretically rigidize very large 3mm PVC pieces by adding additional cross bracing to a simple rectangular frame as is done with large canvases, but I suspect you would get subtle but visible peaks and valleys on the PVC surface, since you would need to attach the PVC to the cross sections, unlike with canvas.  You can also mount thin PVC on sheets of thicker foam core or Gator, but the logic for doing that is a bit fuzzy except to get the slick looking edge.  And as long as we're playing free and easy with logic, you can also double up 3mm PVC into multi layer sandwiches, which would probably be more rigid than monolithic 6mm PVC.

BTW 3mm PVC makes very lightweight art pieces, 3mm ACM and 6mm PVC make very heavy pieces.  And properly braced 3mm PVC mounted art can appear very rigid and flat and look great, if properly constructed.

In the case of the multi-layered package we were talking about earlier, 3mm would work fine as long as the final backing is rigid, as with Dibond or Masonite or 1/2" Gator.  That sort of package is probably a really bad choice for one's early attempts at artwork presentation.

[Garnick]

Hello Maxi,

You have definitely received some very good advice here, so I'll chime in and add my 2¢ worth as a very satisfied user on a pressure sensitive mounter for the best part of 30 years.  While my business was still based on custom darkroom printing(pre digital obviously) my largest print size was 24" wide.  Therefore, my mounter was based on that size as well, and still is.  Of course I print up to 44" wide now, but haven't upgraded the mounter.  My customers usually take care of that part themselves, or farm out that part of the equation.   Now, back to the mounter.  My first "cold" mounter/laminator was purchased approximately 30 years ago here in Toronto, Canada from a company by the name of Interlam(not sure they are still in business).  I still have that mounter, but have since upgraded to a motor driven machine made by Schafer, a German company.  That same company that produced my first "cold" mounter, which I still have as a backup in case the motor drive goes south.  These would not necessarily be considered "cheap" machines, $1500-$2500, and very well made.  The 24" machine will actually accommodate approx 25" in width, so I've never had any problem mounting or laminating a 24"+ wide print.  I have prints that were mounted and laminated on my first mounter(crank drive) approx 30 years ago with no signs of releasing from the substrate, so I can certainly vouch for the adhesives and the process as well.  I would say that with a GOOD, well built pressure sensitive mounter you would be up and running in very little time.  One caution though, if you do opt for a larger "cheap" version, it will definitely be more of a PITA, as Bill mentioned.  On a cheap machine the adjustments would simply not be as accurate and the pressure not as even, so of course, caveat emptor as always.  As far as the over laminate is concerned, again, not a problem.  The only issue I've seen with a very small sampling of my own prints, is that occasionally the lam might release near the edge of the frame over an extended period of time.  However, those prints have been hanging for many years and the lams may not have been as good then, I don't know.  I only use good quality mount board, so I can offer no advice on other substrates.  One caution I can mention.  If for some unknown reason you want to "mount" canvas to board, don't bother wasting the time, effort and expense.  I can unequivocally tell you that the mount will NOT last any length of time.  I did 4 of those for one customer and they seemed to be OK at the time.  However, about 6 months later they were all starting to show signs of releasing.  Luckily I could, with care, strip them form the original substrate and take them to a framer I know who used heat activate adhesives and there has been no problem with the since as far as I know.  My theory is that the pressure sensitive adhesive simply cannot fill all of the little gaps in the canvas weave, and therefore there is always a certain percentage of the canvas that was never adhered to the substrate.  With heat activation the adhesive actually melts and can fill all of the surface of the canvas, making for a much better adhesion.  Well, that's my theory, for what it's worth.  One thing I do know is that it seems to work. 

Good luck with your adventures into dry mounting Maxi.  I hope this helps.

Gary       

[bill t.]

One of the basic differences between good and cheap laminators is the way pressure is applied to the artwork package.

With cheap laminators, pressure is applied by deforming the rollers.  One uses a procedure to carefully adjust each side of the top roller to deform it just the right amount to get even pressure over the width of the artwork.  The problem is that if the artwork is not the same thickness over its entire length as at the adjustment point, the amount of pressure applied will vary at different  locations, with the risk of insufficient pressure and even bubbles in places.  One can try to compensate by always using the maximum compression that the substrate can endure without rippling, but that involves risks.  Getting the deformation right with the cheesy screw adjusters on the cheap laminators is an ongoing pita, although some samples of a particular low QC model may be better than others.  BTW, Gator varies in thickness by a fraction of a mm, so you need to check your roller pressure often.  ACM panel is more consistent.

With good laminators, the rollers have a mechanism for applying pressure through springs, counterweights, torque bars, and other active means.  And on the very best laminators, the pressure can be adjusted with parametric readouts.  The advantage is that if the artwork thickness is not perfectly consistent across its surface, the active pressure application will be able to compensate.  The Coda laminators earn their price because of this, and almost all high end laminators have a similar system.

Another significant difference is that some good laminators can apply a small amount of "heat assist" to the top roller.  That helps the adhesive to flow into the texture of the media and substrate.  For applying protective, overlaminated covers to prints some heat is almost essential to avoid "silvering" which comes from miniscule air bubbles trapped in the adhesive, it's sort of like bronzing.  Silvering usually goes away after a few hours.  But there seems to be a sense that for the clearest possible overlaminate application, and the best possible adhesion of prints to substrate, a little heat goes a long way towards quality and permanence.  For instance, in the famous Bumblejax facemounting video you can see the GBC laminator rollers are set to around 78F, and I saw 85F on another facemount video I can't now find.  To be fair, I have experimented with overlaminating films on a pita laminator, and have noted that some judicious hair dryer work cuts down silvering a lot, but it's a delicate dance and the results of overdoing it are not pretty.  I believe the avoidance of silvering is one of the reasons facemounters prefer extremely smooth media, thereby avoiding texture that could retain air bubbles.

[ddolde]

I wouldn't do this with anything except a dye infused metal print. You aren't going to have any protection, at least I don't see any glass or acrylic in front of the print. Correct me if I am wrong.

In the case of a metal print mounting it would be easy. I would use an adhesive like Weld-On 45.  It's a two part epoxy or some such that is applied with a mixing gun so you don't have to worry about it.

[disneytoy]

Again, thanks for all the great info.

There is glass over the frame. My intention was only to bleed mount and float the Epson Glossy. When I get my hands on some 3mm PVC I will give that a try. With proper backing.

I'm really not a newbee. I've made my own frames, Heat drymounted in chemical darkroom days. Plus many years as an artist.

Years ago I used masonite (the light single sided type) and a white flat house paint, I no longer can get that exact make. With the spray gun I got a very nice fiber paper like texture, and at the time matched very closely to the Lenox 100 Etching paper I was using. I have several large pieces still on the wall.

Cost is an issue, Painted masonite for the back of the frame is likely. I will try the 3mm white PVC, and something in between. Still need to figure out the frame. Bill gave me some ideas to try.

Here are some better corner photos of my target project.

Thanks again,

Maxi

[bill t.]

Sorry for thinkin' you wuz a newby!  You can never tell around here.  Anybody who smells even faintly of acetic acid and sodium thiosulfate has my respect.

Well that's a nice looking treatment.  Depending on which image I look at, the print may be mounted on 3mm PVC or 0.040" aluminum.

The frame could be Studio Moulding 24760, which has a face 1" wide and is 1.875" deep.  Have no idea what the scale of that frame is.  Just about every manufacturer has something like that.  For underpinning-free framing use polystyrene and Loctite Ultra Gel Super Glue, buy some extra of each for practice which will be needed.  TCG saw blades, that's all you need to know.

In regards to glazing, I'm not convinced it's needed.  Hey, it works for oil painters!  Lacquer coated glossy prints are amazingly tough, I can drag my fingers across Premier coated Museo Silver Rag and Hahn Fine Art Barta and Simply Elegant Premium Luster without a scratch.  It freaks people out.  And if the print does get scratched, it can be fixed right there on the wall with one swipe from spray can, just mask around the print with some paper.  OTOH, when plex is scratched it's forever, and it WILL be scratched, and no amount of Novus #2 can ever really fix it.

We just recently stopped glazing my wife's 30 x 44 pastels in favor of high tech coating. Damn those thing were heavy, and so hard to clean!

Edit: some moulding like Omega P83426 come with recess on the back specifically to help capture backing boards.

[petercorb]

If you look here on my website it shows the construction of how I float/frame images. http://petercorbett.com/gallery/ - then scroll down.

I try to adhere to museum standards whereby the image is in minimum contact without any contamination i.e all materials are acid free.

This means the image can be recovered easily without damage - cotton wool buds moistened with distilled water will release.

I would never use any adhesives apart from the hinges I make from Japanese "mulberry" tape which is whetted with distilled water.

I have developed my own technique of feathering the tape so it has both minimum contact and is equally strong enough to support large prints up to 1.5m 

I use acid free fomecore as a backing which is then mounted in the frame, either 5mm or 3mm or a combination depending on the box depth.

Of course depending on the media and the ambient humidity the image may not be exactly flat.

I explain to customers that the work is art and therefore a living thing, most are not perturbed and are quite happy with some movement in the image.

Personally I think it adds life and uniqueness to the work.