Topic: Thank you adding "Excluding 35mm" (Read 10089 times)

torger · « **Reply #20 on:** March 06, 2015, 06:09:17 am »

I think we should have forums split on system cost instead. Anything cheaper than say $30k shouldn't be welcome here ;-)

44x33 is too small to be true MFD too, and CMOS is just too versatile. Tech cams are really large format pretenders and does not fit anywhere.

gazwas · « **Reply #21 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:14:00 am »

Many of the posters in the MF section are professionals that once used MF exclusively but now just happen to shoot on multiple formants hence why there is probably such a mixture of formats used here.

Be careful what you wish for as a lot of the excellent imagery posted is by those people using 35mm cameras and putting a ban on all this and you'll be left with camera porn and stale conversations about how everyone loves their faultless MFD cameras. ZZZZZzzzzzzz $:-\$

synn · « **Reply #22 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:21:29 am »

Quote from: gazwas on March 06, 2015, 07:14:00 am

Many of the posters in the MF section are professionals that once used MF exclusively but now just happen to shoot on multiple formants

While that is true, the majority of the posts here are not from those people.

Quote from: gazwas on March 06, 2015, 07:14:00 am

Be careful what you wish for as a lot of the excellent imagery posted is by those people using 35mm cameras and putting a ban on all this and you'll be left with camera porn and stale conversations about how everyone loves their faultless MFD cameras. ZZZZZzzzzzzz $:-\$

Images constitute maybe 3% of all the posts in this forum and no, no one is askign for any ban. Just to keep the 35mm talk in a separate section.

No one is demanding for only "Loving posts about faultless MFD cameras" either. But it is possible to discuss pluses and minuses of medium format within the context of that particular format. A skill that is completely lost in this forum. Just because there are megapixel overlaps between two formats doesn't mean they need to be compared endlessly in every single thread.

torger · « **Reply #23 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:37:57 am »

Cut the price to 1/5th or so and the endless comparisons will disappear. The reason it's always compared to economical alternatives is that MFD is offensively expensive. The 645z fairs quite well because people think it's reasonably priced.

There's also been plenty of MFD mythology concerning image quality, and I think we see the payback. When claims like 16 bit color and several stops of better dynamic range is in circulation an interest to actually compare arises.

Many are also interested in "keeping a distance to the DSLR crowd " and thus constantly needs update on where 135 stands so they can upgrade their MFD system accordingly.

synn · « **Reply #24 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:48:52 am »

An Olympus 16MP M43 camera costs a fraction of what a Nikon D4s costs. Yet, I don't see an Olympus avalanche in the Nikon forums anywhere.

Also, how exactly is the 645z "faring better"? Marketshare? Mindshare? Goodwill of the angry mob on Internetville? Who's mind are you trying to change here? A person who decides to go for MFD is never looking at price as the primary deciding factor. A person who is supporting 35mm will never agree that something that costs more might be better at a few things than their equipment. All that is left is this never ending back and forth. And of course, lots of charts and numbers.

How many comparison tests have this forum seen? Can you name a single person from either camp saying "Yep, I was wrong. I am going to the other side now and never looking back".

What exactly have these format comparisons accomplished?

gazwas · « **Reply #25 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:50:57 am »

Quote from: synn on March 06, 2015, 07:21:29 am

While that is true, the majority of the posts here are not from those people.

Images constitute maybe 3% of all the posts in this forum and no, no one is askign for any ban. Just to keep the 35mm talk in a separate section.

No one is demanding for only "Loving posts about faultless MFD cameras" either. But it is possible to discuss pluses and minuses of medium format within the context of that particular format. A skill that is completely lost in this forum. Just because there are megapixel overlaps between two formats doesn't mean they need to be compared endlessly in every single thread.

I personally don't care for which format is discussed in this forum as it is usually by very informed people, with experience and for the greater good of photography. Segregating people into categories is just unnecessary especially as there is so much overlap between formats now that stopping discussion would be a mistake IMO. Who would know about the Cambo Actus for example if 35mm discussion was limited to its own forum where I imaging most people would shoot sport, wildlife, BIF etc. I can own a digi back and a A7r and use it on the same view camera and with the same lenses.

I personally can't believe people can think this is a good idea?

If you don't agree with what is being discussed don't contribute and look or start topics that do interest you but don't ban it........ what a strange place this is becoming?

synn · « **Reply #26 on:** March 06, 2015, 07:55:36 am »

Quote from: gazwas on March 06, 2015, 07:50:57 am

I personally don't care for which format is discussed in this forum as it is usually by very informed people, with experience and for the greater good of photography. Segregating people into categories is just unnecessary especially as there is so much overlap between formats now that stopping discussion would be a mistake IMO. Who would know about the Cambo Actus for example if 35mm discussion was limited to its own forum where I imaging most people would shoot sport, wildlife, BIF etc. I can own a digi back and a A7r and use it on the same view camera and with the same lenses.

Which is why I said, just one thread in one forum will do fine.
Seriously, take page 3 onwards of almost any thread here. It is near impossible to figure out what the original thread subject was, because they all read exactly the same.

torger · « **Reply #27 on:** March 06, 2015, 08:14:40 am »

Actually many look for second hand MFD, and many there need a reality check after being marinated by various sales speak. They are generally not well-informed buyers I would say but rather have some dreamy view of what MFD provides. People think that something so expensive must be better at everything.

I wrote a guide about second hand MFD a while back, and it gets many hits and I get appreciating mails now and then. Many have been in contact with (eu) dealers but still don't get the information they need.

Some choose to stay with 135 and some still find a value in the MFD use case (even with a 22 megapixel back), but all find comparison to 135 as relevant.

torger · « **Reply #28 on:** March 06, 2015, 08:21:54 am »

I agree that a few subjects get repeated in the forum more than they need, but that probably just means I visit too often :-)

I think repeating is a different issue from how relevant a subject is. Comparison to 135 is very relevant, but maybe repeated a bit too often.

synn · « **Reply #29 on:** March 06, 2015, 08:27:50 am »

If there is a balanced discussion about comparison to help prospective byers, sure. I will go with your train of thought. but what ACTUALLY happens here is that a lot of old axes get grinded, MFD gets discredited at every possible opportunity and those who actually use this gear to do real work give up, put up their hands and say "why bother".

To go along with my earlier example, some M43 user doing this in the full frame section or vice versa in any other forum on the internet would earn you a one way ticket to banville. Here though, it's accepted as part of the scenery because hey, everybody loves to hate on MFD, the red headed stepchild of photography!

torger · « **Reply #30 on:** March 06, 2015, 08:42:29 am »

Ok, maybe I interpret it a bit differently. I use MFD myself and recently upgraded. I don't really see "MFD hate" here, but plenty criticism on pricing, dealer network, tech cam compatibility, SLR body features, dynamic range limitations. Quite relevant criticism if you ask me.

I also see praise, I myself often lift up the Schneiders and Kodak and view cameras unique properties, I've seen lots of IQ250 praise, 645z, Hassy multishot etc. I also see users get concrete answers to concrete questions about MFD gear use.

Jan K. · « **Reply #31 on:** March 06, 2015, 10:10:38 am »

Quote from: synn on March 06, 2015, 07:48:52 am

What exactly have these format comparisons accomplished?

Enlightened 3rd party people?

I don't know, where my feets are, so sucking up as much possible of the impressive knowledge shared here...

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #32 on:** March 06, 2015, 01:27:21 pm »

Well, some people complain about the lack of images.

Now, I see small small web size JPEGs as bad evidence of anything. I have published quite a few images in raw, like here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/

Those images helped at least two persons to buy into the Hasselblad V system, so I don't think I am to negative to MFD.

What I don't like with MFD is that there is a lot of bad information:

The 6 EV DR advantage - all fake
The 16 bit advantage - simply not true
The better colour accuracy advantage - no evidence. That said, in my experiments my P45+ does OK, pretty close to my Sony Alpha 99.
The Phase mount change advantage - not true, Phase One has a modular architecture so you should be able to replace the camera mount, but they exchange the whole back.

Some dealers provide very good information, Steve Hendrix of Capture Integration comes to mind.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: torger on March 06, 2015, 08:42:29 am

Ok, maybe I interpret it a bit differently. I use MFD myself and recently upgraded. I don't really see "MFD hate" here, but plenty criticism on pricing, dealer network, tech cam compatibility, SLR body features, dynamic range limitations. Quite relevant criticism if you ask me.

I also see praise, I myself often lift up the Schneiders and Kodak and view cameras unique properties, I've seen lots of IQ250 praise, 645z, Hassy multishot etc. I also see users get concrete answers to concrete questions about MFD gear use.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #33 on:** March 06, 2015, 01:49:31 pm »

Hi Synn,

Olympus OM-D E-M5: 1099 $US (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1116759-REG/olympus_v207040bu000_om_d_e_m5_mark_ii.html)

Nikon D810: 2996:95 $US (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Camera+Model_Nikon+D810&ci=14876&N=4232860786+3907353607)

Hasselblad H5D-40: 10995:00 $US (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/893188-REG/Hasselblad_H5D_40_DSLR_Camera.html)

In the table below Nikon D810 was chosen as reference and normalised to one.

Make	Price	Resolution	Sensor area
Olympus OM-D E-M5	0.37	0.44	0.25
Nikon D810	1	1	1
Pentax 645Z	2.8	1.39	1.68
Hasselblad H5D-40	3.7	1.1	1.67

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: synn on March 06, 2015, 07:48:52 am

An Olympus 16MP M43 camera costs a fraction of what a Nikon D4s costs. Yet, I don't see an Olympus avalanche in the Nikon forums anywhere.

Also, how exactly is the 645z "faring better"? Marketshare? Mindshare? Goodwill of the angry mob on Internetville? Who's mind are you trying to change here? A person who decides to go for MFD is never looking at price as the primary deciding factor. A person who is supporting 35mm will never agree that something that costs more might be better at a few things than their equipment. All that is left is this never ending back and forth. And of course, lots of charts and numbers.

How many comparison tests have this forum seen? Can you name a single person from either camp saying "Yep, I was wrong. I am going to the other side now and never looking back".

What exactly have these format comparisons accomplished?

RobbieV · « **Reply #34 on:** March 06, 2015, 02:11:41 pm »

What about this idea: Only respond to the threads you think apply to the sub-forum. If there is a topic with anything to do with m4/3 and you aren not into that, don't click on it. If there is a topic that didn't mention a camera system in the title that is mentioned in the body, and it is one that you would rather not discuss, don't add a reply to the topic.

If you find yourself replying to the thread and catch yourself, perform the following. Close the browser window. Back away from your computer and make yourself a cup of tea.

Yes, I am aware of the irony within this response.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #35 on:** March 06, 2015, 02:16:31 pm »

:-) Is that what they call "grown up attitude complex"? :-)

:-) Erik :-)

Quote from: RobbieV on March 06, 2015, 02:11:41 pm

What about this idea: Only respond to the threads you think apply to the sub-forum. If there is a topic with anything to do with m4/3 and you aren not into that, don't click on it. If there is a topic that didn't mention a camera system in the title that is mentioned in the body, and it is one that you would rather not discuss, don't add a reply to the topic.

If you find yourself replying to the thread and catch yourself, perform the following. Close the browser window. Back away from your computer and make yourself a cup of tea.

Yes, I am aware of the irony within this response.

LKaven · « **Reply #36 on:** March 06, 2015, 02:37:56 pm »

This is a bad week to harp on 35mm users considering the loss of one of our most prolific members who swore by his D800/D810. I'm a little against the idea of chasing anyone out right now.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #37 on:** March 06, 2015, 03:05:16 pm »

Hi Luke,

I share your sentiment. Simon was a great guy!

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: LKaven on March 06, 2015, 02:37:56 pm

This is a bad week to harp on 35mm users considering the loss of one of our most prolific members who swore by his D800/D810. I'm a little against the idea of chasing anyone out right now.

bcooter · « **Reply #38 on:** March 06, 2015, 03:09:08 pm »

Quote from: yaya on March 06, 2015, 06:06:24 am

I really like the first forest image!

Yair,

I like the images also. Apple does clean, simple graphic design where almost anything looks good that big.

I just posted it thinking the PEO, (Pixel Examiners Office) would tear it apart.

I guess they don't use I phones.

Actually in the pre PEO days, this type of post would have brought up discussion of how Apple selected imagery for an ad campaign. In this campaign, rather than commission photographers that can produce imagery with regularity, they searched 10,000 iphone images to find a handful of photos good enough to show.

That would have been an interesting discussion, but that discussion doesn't happen anymore.

Synn,

This part of the forum use to be different. It was mostly populated by photographers who worked as professionals or excellent amateurs that had a desire to produce unique work that rivaled the best.

They shared lighting ideas, strong imagery, work arounds with issues and were proud of their efforts and equipment they used in their imagery.

Then it seemed like overnight with the overwhelming d800 "discussions" something changed, where every post was covered with Nikon stuff or Sony sensor stuff and now it's MOSTLY about pixel size, dr, moire by a few people that are coming close to 10,000 posts of writing the same thing regardless of the topic.

It's old habit that I turn the site on, kind of like reading the arts section of the NY times every morning, except this NY times has now fired the journalists and populated the pages by wanna be writers for Pixel World Daily. (I don't know if there is a Pixel World Daily).

I guess in social media, everyone has a "right" to bury every thread.

I have the right to or not to read it, but since every topic turns out the same, I just pass over 90% of everything on this subsection.

and it's not just this section, the PEO has dominated almost every camera format thread so at this stage what's the point?

They now own these forums and seem to go to a great deal of effort to prove it.

IMO

BC

JoeKitchen · « **Reply #39 on:** March 06, 2015, 04:38:07 pm »

Quote from: Sharon Van Lieu on March 06, 2015, 04:00:52 pm

Totally agree with BC.

I as well.

It is kind of sad that this forum has devolved into this. I use to really enjoy the conversations about image making and lighting and the critiques, but it kind of seems that the Recent Professional Works sub-forum is the only place where we occasionally see this.

And when it comes down to it, clients kind of don't care about the formats. We may. I am very comfortable using a tech camera, so MFD is kind of it for me. However, the versatility of the modern CMOS sensors are really intriguing me.

But the fact is, no client cares. I am right now proof reading a 9 page proposal for a huge project and only one 2 sentence paragraph goes into the camera system I plan on using.

Author Topic: Thank you adding "Excluding 35mm" (Read 10089 times)