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Author Topic: Fine art paper: where to start?  (Read 7096 times)

Bob_B

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Fine art paper: where to start?
« on: March 04, 2015, 11:18:16 am »

For years, I've used Red River papers for my prints. I like RR and plan to continue using their papers for my more 'conventional' printing. However, as I've developed as a photographer, I've become interested in printing to what I will call 'fine art' papers (particularly for b/w photos), and here in lies my question. How do I begin to know which papers to try and use? Moab, Ilford, Canson, and Hahemuehle have great reputations and a lot of choices. Is there a way to narrow the list down without spending a lot of money and time buying and testing and retesting? I do plan on getting the sample packs offered by some of these suppliers, and that will help, as will my use of a Canon Pro-100 printer which may further restrict the list of useable papers.

This said, I wonder if I've missed some websites that can help me in my decision making? Your advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

   Bob

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Iluvmycam

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 11:25:06 am »

Just have to try paper. If you listen to others you are missing a lot as opinions always come with pet prejudices. Many people love paper I do not like. Same with my likes, others may hate em.

Here is a paper listing for the Encyclopedia of Photographic and Fine Art Ink Jet Printing Media. See what surface of paper you like and test the waters. It is not a complete listing of every media ever made, but it is a good start.

(nsfw)

http://encyclopediainkjet.tumblr.com/
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 11:39:42 am by Iluvmycam »
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bill t.

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 02:04:44 pm »

Pick either a glossy or a matte paradigm, ignoring some other niche options for now.  Each of those has two categories: photo and art.  Pick a paper in your quadrant of choice with a surface you like based on sample packs, have it accurately profiled, and learn to exploit the fullest potential of that particular paper.  BTW surfaces are basically modern and classical, but that's another story.

Such testing may involve purely aesthetic choices made in the here and now, or choices moderated by a practical balance between perceived lifespan potential and the simple beauty of the print fresh off the printer.  Note that wise inkjet jockeys don't actually judge prints until the morning after.

Most "paper testing" using manufacturers' profiles is really profile testing.  When accurate profiles for a specific, single printer are used to make prints, the astonishing thing is that the in-quadrant differences are mostly quibbles, to borrow a term from Michael.  I have more than once thought I had finally found my Eureka paper, only to discover I could not pick it out when it was tacked up on the wall alongside its equally well profiled competitors, where I could not see surface reflections.  Have also been surprised to find that some prints displayed in the most fastidious archival framing have in a particular environment degraded faster than their coated and glued OBA-richer contemporaries.

Those wanting prints that are very long lived while on display where light is present should avoid inkjet printing.  Also all silver photographic processes. Also any implied or specific promise of display longevity to clients, beyond "about 10 years."  Those seeking display longevity in the century+ range should learn to draw on the purest of substrates with chalk pastels which have already turned to dust.
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Justan

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 03:00:31 pm »

Quote
Your advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

All the top brands you mention make great papers. I tried about a dozen different ones back when, mostly out of curiosity and found that they all look good and some such as those which offer a pearlescent finish are unique. A few years later you forget the minutia and review the results to find they all look good. It is perhaps ironic that not many consumers other than those who use the different types (and who will not likely be your customers for that reason) can readily tell the differences.

I went with the Hahnemühle Photo Rag Baryta mostly because you just can’t go wrong with this paper. Plus the amount of time Hahnemühle has been in business (accordingly, since 1584) and the number of places art on their papers has made its way to, combines to make for some awesome selling points. That put into text, they are probably not so much different than any other top brand................except perhaps for the mystique..............

disneytoy

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 05:50:02 pm »

If your "artwork" is good, no one notices which paper, or what matte and frame you used.
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Jager

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2015, 07:58:06 pm »

To me, printmaking, even with its occasional foibles and frustrations, is a joy.  It is the tactile, expressive consummation of all the work that went before.  When a print comes together, emerging in a kind of perfect, wordless harmony from the printer, it's such a beautiful thing.

Papers (and to a somewhat lesser degree, inks) are the palette we have to work with.  So embrace the wonderful choices we have today!

As for where to start... do what Bill suggests.  Decide first whether an image would work best with a matte or a glossy/luster paper.  That's the great divide.  

Once that's decided, it's just a matter of trying different papers, listening to different folks, reading reviews, searching threads, and having a good time.  I know, for me, trying a new paper is always tinged with excitement.

stockjock

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 02:49:38 am »

Just to add a few parameters to the discussion.

1) Some paper manufacturers have a reputation for providing very high quality profiles with their papers.  Personally, I have no interest in adding in the additional complexity and expense of profiling paper myself.  Early on in my days of using the Epson 3880 I simply assumed that, of course, they must be providing very high quality profiles for their branded papers.  It wasn't until I started printing with Canson Baryta Photographique and the Canson profiles that I appreciated the difference, not only in the "quality" of the paper, but also the excellence of the profile.  I have read that Canson is renowned for the excellence of their profiles and that has certainly been my experience with the Epson 3880 and Canon iPF8400 using Canson Baryta, Platine, and Rag Photographique.  Canson does provide profiles for the Canon Pixma Pro-100 so I would count that as a positive.

2) Price is a significant factor for many of us in the decision of which paper to use.  In general, Hahnemuhle and Moab are simply too expensive for me to be comfortable using for my personal printing no matter how serious I am about it.  I've built a spreadsheet to help me evaluate which papers are well priced since sizes and quantities vary.  And by shopping carefully, from time to time, I have found some significant price opportunities in the Canson papers and I have stocked up on them when that has occurred.  For example, right now you can buy a box of 17"x22" Canson Rag Photographique 310 GSM from B&H for $94.95 delivered.  That doesn't do you any good since you are using a 13" wide printer but it is a very good and anomalous price.  From what I have read on dpreview.com there are occasionally sales on the Canon papers meant for the Pixma Pro-100 that have 3 for 1 and even 5 for 1 sales.   But I have no idea what their quality is.  Right now you can buy the Canson Baryta in 13x19" sheets from Inkjetmall.com for $54.12 plus shipping (use WEEKLY20 for the coupon code).  Their shipping is a little expensive but if you buy multiple boxes it is less of a factor. 

3) Texture or surface is a big deal.  I don't simply mean matte versus glossy.  A lot of fine art papers, especially the matte rag papers, have quite a bit of surface texture.  Nobody can tell you if you will prefer the surface on one paper over another.  That is one of the reasons people here are so reluctant to recommend any one paper as the best.  For my photographic style surface texture interferes with the print, but many pictures benefit greatly from a more textured paper.  That is particularly true with B&W prints where the texture can feel quite luxurious.  Papers also vary in how they show gloss differential and bronzing and those differences are often printer specific.

There are many people on here with much more experience and skill than I have but it is hard to get them to actually make a specific paper recommendation because it is so subjective and printer specific.  For my purposes, I have decided that the Canson Platine Fibre Rag and the Canson Rag Photographique 310 gsm are the papers I am going to standardize my printing on.  Both are heavy papers with great hand feel and no OBA's.  They have excellent profiles for my printers and the prints I make on them are amazing.  From 5' away looked at dead on I can't tell the difference between the two papers.  Up close the Canson Platine has just a shade more vibrancy which is the "pop" that a glossier surface gives you.  Viewed from the side the Rag Photographique is the winner since there is absolutely no glare.  I couldn't tell you that one is better than the other.  There may be better papers out there but those two will meet my needs for the foreseeable future.  Naturally, your mileage may vary. 
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Bob_B

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2015, 08:52:39 am »

I wish to thank each of you for your advice, and appreciate the time and effort that went into your replies.

@bill t: Great idea about making a quantrant. I will definitely start here.

@jager: Agreed about print making. I did wet-silver b/w photography and developing for many decades prior to moving to digital. I have fond memories of watching prints come to life in the developer. It is somewhat different with inkjet printing, but still fun.

@stockjock: All good points, which will come in handy in choosing paper.

I have ordered a few sample packs of matte paper from the manufacturers I mentioned (couldn't find Canson sample packs on my first search). Also, I have to go back over the settings on my printer specific for b/w printing. I may not have set it for best results.

Again, Thank You!

   Bob
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jferrari

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 09:42:42 am »

At one point you say:

3) Texture or surface is a big deal.

And then later you say:

From 5' away looked at dead on I can't tell the difference

I say that if you are putting paper under glass for protection then the texture is not a concern. I would be more worried about the glare the glass is causing. My paper of choice is canvas.    - Jim
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dwswager

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2015, 03:43:26 pm »

1) Some paper manufacturers have a reputation for providing very high quality profiles with their papers.  Personally, I have no interest in adding in the additional complexity and expense of profiling paper myself. 

This is a big deal.  I started using Exhibition Fiber when the price came down and use a PixelGenious profile for it rather than the one from Epson.

2) Price is a significant factor for many of us in the decision of which paper to use.  In general, Hahnemuhle and Moab are simply too expensive for me to be comfortable using for my personal printing no matter how serious I am about it. 

Concur that in general, the Hahnemuhle papers are fairly pricey.  For value on an Epson printer, almost nothing beats the Epson Papers.  I hate the flimsyness of the Luster 260, but it has a wonderful surface and is really inexpensive.  The Hot/Cold Press Bright/Natural are also great papers for the money.

3) Texture or surface is a big deal.  I don't simply mean matte versus glossy. 

Yeah, this is an area that people start writing comments and mixing surface texture with sheen.  You can have matte, luster, satin, pearl, semi-gloss and gloss on a paper while the surface can be from smooth to highly textured. 

My recommendation is to buy sample packs (remember when they used to give you decent size sample boxes of different papers for free).
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stockjock

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 04:09:49 pm »

At one point you say:

And then later you say:

I say that if you are putting paper under glass for protection then the texture is not a concern. I would be more worried about the glare the glass is causing. My paper of choice is canvas.    - Jim

I assume that if you are using canvas you aren't glazing the photo?  Some of the photos that I have, that I have chosen to frame, are simply shadow boxed which makes the surface a big deal again.  I am unaware of anything specific about canvas, other than the protective sprays people tend to use, that makes them more archival than an unglazed print on high quality paper.  Am I wrong?

But doesn't your point also argue for printing on the cheapest, light weight paper you can find that is still archival?

The number of photos I frame versus print is vanishingly small so that makes the surface/texture/weight of the paper I use important to my appreciation of them. 

Personally, I hate the look of photos on canvas.  I can't help but associate them with decoration rather than art but that is just my thing.  I know that canvas prints are popular in certain markets and with many members here.
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Johnny_Johnson

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 04:33:28 pm »



Personally, I hate the look of photos on canvas.  I can't help but associate them with decoration rather than art but that is just my thing.  I know that canvas prints are popular in certain markets and with many members here.

I smiled when I read that. My wife and I attend a festival in North Carolina each year and there's a photographer that exhibits prints there that are all on canvas. Mitchelle loves the prints and each year tells me that I should also try printing on canvas. I just attempt to change the subject.

Later,
Johnny
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Erland

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2015, 04:41:09 pm »

I bought my first inkjet just over a month ago, along with a pack of 25 sheets of Epson Lustre. Tried 6-7 other papers papers so far, and I can just say that the papers others have preferred often wasn't my first or even second choice.
I thought when I read about Baryta papers, that this was going to be my main paper. I bought 4 sheets, and my first reaction was Meeeh... Then I tried a sample pack from Bonjet. Made it a lot easier choosing, and after comparing both color and B&W, I'm back at my Lustre paper. However I bought a sample of thicker Lustre to try, and now this will be my go-to paper in the future.
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dwswager

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2015, 04:44:34 pm »

Personally, I hate the look of photos on canvas.  I can't help but associate them with decoration rather than art but that is just my thing.  I know that canvas prints are popular in certain markets and with many members here.

Everyone has personal preferences, but typically canvas is used for large prints viewed from a reasonable distance such that the texture is much less noticeable than when viewed up close. 
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bill t.

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2015, 06:35:38 pm »

Some paper manufacturers have a reputation for providing very high quality profiles with their papers.  Personally, I have no interest in adding in the additional complexity and expense of profiling paper myself.

I have never seen a "quality" manufacturer's profile that was perfect for my printer.  The ones I make are close to perfect especially in shadow detail and highlight detail, and in the most subtle tonalities and colors.  Using wide gamut media the screen to print match is perfect.  For my specific printer.  That's not quite the case for manufacturers' profiles, even though some are close by One Hour Photo standards.

The manufacturer generated profiles were probably made months or years ago on a different sample of my printer and possibly on the very first batch of the media.  Since then there have likely been slipstream changes in printer and media manufacturing.  If one wants to hang out a "Fine Art" sign, then a profiling system or service is imperative, and should be used at regular intervals such as whenever the media starts showing up in a different style of box, or with a new smell.  Or in the case of 8300, where one head is now over 600 working days old, and the other is new.

I say this on the basis of having recently tested a big sample of media.  AFAIK, printing without printer-specific profiles is a waste of quality media and disqualifies one from being a Fine Art Printer, whatever those lofty sounding words might mean.  Personally, I print art and I'm mighty fine, thanks.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 08:05:46 pm by bill t. »
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Justan

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2015, 07:23:06 pm »

^….when threads collide….^

jferrari

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2015, 11:44:42 am »

I assume that if you are using canvas you aren't glazing the photo?  Correct, no glazing. Some of the photos that I have, that I have chosen to frame, are simply shadow boxed which makes the surface a big deal again.  I am unaware of anything specific about canvas, other than the protective sprays people tend to use, (I don't spray or roll, I laminate) that makes them more archival than an unglazed print on high quality paper.  Am I wrong? Well, let's see! Place your favorite print on a flat surface such as your kitchen table. You'll need a cotton cloth and a spray bottle of 409. Spray your print with 409 and use the cotton rag in a vigorous, circular motion to clean your print. Happy with the results?
But doesn't your point also argue for printing on the cheapest, light weight paper you can find that is still archival? That depends on your market and what your clients are willing to pay.

The number of photos I frame versus print is vanishingly small so that makes the surface/texture/weight of the paper I use important to my appreciation of them.  If it's important to you that's fine, I'm just not sure why you made the statement: "From 5' away looked at dead on I can't tell the difference."

Personally, I hate the look of photos on canvas.  I can't help but associate them with decoration rather than art but that is just my thing.  Please be aware that not all canvas prints are gallery wraps. I produce a lot of prints using traditional frames sans glare glass. I know that canvas prints are popular in certain markets and with many members here. You are very much entitled to your opinion. My mileage varies.     -Jim
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hugowolf

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2015, 12:07:37 pm »

... Well, let's see! Place your favorite print on a flat surface such as your kitchen table. You'll need a cotton cloth and a spray bottle of 409. Spray your print with 409 and use the cotton rag in a vigorous, circular motion to clean your print. Happy with the results? ...

Why not sulfuric acid, a can of paint, or a bottle of bleach?

Brian A
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howardm

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2015, 12:20:21 pm »

bush league !!

Hydrofluoric acid is best.  Just ask Heisenberg  8)

jferrari

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Re: Fine art paper: where to start?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 04:04:57 pm »

Why not sulfuric acid, a can of paint, or a bottle of bleach?

I assume you are just being sarcastic but to answer your question - because I can, and do, clean my prints with 409 in the manner described and would not remotely consider using any of your proposed agents as being a logical choice for anyone to use to clean their fine art prints.    - Jim
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