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Author Topic: Why provide an air space behind glazing?  (Read 3157 times)

pcgpcg

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Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« on: February 24, 2015, 02:02:14 pm »

I have always used a mat or a spacer behind the frame rabbit to hold an inkjet print away from the glazing. What are the perceived problems with placing an inkjet print on glossy paper directly against glazing? "To allow it to breathe" is not a suitable answer.
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Paul2660

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2015, 02:32:45 pm »

Unless you have the print displayed in a 100% controlled environment, eventually part of the print will stick to the glass and thus ruin the look of the image.  Even if you drymount the shot it's more than likely going to happen.  Once it does, you will have to pull the framed print apart.  These are called hotspots.
If you are using RC paper, then more than likely you will quickly see a outgassing issue, leaving a pattern on the glass, much sooner than if you have used a space.  Also the outgassing pattern will be much stronger as the print is touching the glass. In a room where the glass gets hot and cold, (which is most rooms), this process will happen fairly fast.

Acrylic face mounting prevents by the process of mounting the print.

You can however try using a matte paper with a clear glass, or non glare glass.  I have done this before and it will look fine.  The matte surface of the paper is not as smooth as a glossy paper and thus will not stick right up to the glass.  Using this method will give your matte print a bit more dmax also, due to the glass being right on the print it acts like a coating. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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pcgpcg

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2015, 02:53:43 pm »

The matte surface of the paper is not as smooth as a glossy paper and thus will not stick right up to the glass.  Using this method will give your matte print a bit more dmax also, due to the glass being right on the print it acts like a coating.  
Thank you.  Anyone else tried this and had good long-term results? Now I am thinking of using 100% rag matte paper against acryclic (with no mat or spacer).
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 03:29:36 pm by pcgpcg »
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mstevensphoto

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2015, 03:38:30 pm »

"To allow it to breathe" is not a suitable answer.

really? because that's exactly the answer.

if you place the print in contact you'll find that at some point you get condensation/haze. If you put your image behind glass before the print has fully dried/out gassed you can get a base. if you're actually surface mounting it's a different story, but if you're otherwise normally framing without a mat/space you're just asking for issues from haze to ruined prints to odd looking bits where the print alternately is or isn't in perfect contact with the glass.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2015, 03:49:43 pm »

We’ve done a lot of framing with glazing, and even with matt papers and no space we have seen occasional problems ... albeit far fewer than with RC based papers.  Epson Luster has more texture than most matt papers and as long as it is outgassed adequately will tend to stick less than gloss papers but regardless of any measures, if there is no space eventually you may have a problem. I also think with inkjet prints some of the outgassing can be exaggerated by direct contact with the glass.  I’m not sure “breathing” is the best word to describe it, as there is no circulation of air in that space, but the space does impede the process.

Chemical photographs should never touch the glass, because they have a high likelihood of sticking over time due to their construction and their ability to “absorb” humidity.

My personal opinion after seeing hundreds of pieces framed and presented in a variety of ways is the space serves a little different purpose, especially if it is a little larger space such as behind a double matt, and that is to separate the print from the glass.  The texture of the paper even though it is only a short distance behind the surface of the glass seems to be part of the image and separate from the high gloss of the glass, and the reflections on the glass seem detached from the image.  We have framed many images where the glazing was placed in front of a liner of some type, thus creating a ½” space or so, and to me separates and identifies the glazing as intended to protect the fragile and valuable item under it.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 03:52:13 pm by Wayne Fox »
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PeterAit

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2015, 03:58:29 pm »

I have always used a mat or a spacer behind the frame rabbit to hold an inkjet print away from the glazing. What are the perceived problems with placing an inkjet print on glossy paper directly against glazing? "To allow it to breathe" is not a suitable answer.

Why do you, out of hand, reject the correct answer?
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pcgpcg

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 04:28:07 pm »

Why do you, out of hand, reject the correct answer?
I didn't say it wasn't correct. I said it wasn't suitable. I was just requesting more explicit information. I should have made that more clear.

I want to know WHY it has to "breathe". People use that term all the time to describe (incorrectly or not) things like expansion, contraction, outgassing, absorption of moisture, drying out when moved to a different climate, etc. The reason I want to know why is so I can decide for myself if the reason requires leaving a space behind the glazing in my application.

For example, if the only reason is to allow outgassing, and a five year old print on non resin-coated paper no longer outgasses, and it is stored in a humidity-controlled environment, then perhaps it no longer requires space to "breathe". Maybe it would for other reasons, but I'm just appealing to people with more knowledge and experience than me to tell me what those reasons are.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 04:50:53 pm by pcgpcg »
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mstevensphoto

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2015, 04:51:19 pm »

for what it's worth my experience has been opposite Wayne. I actually find more issues with RC papers. it seems like I hear back in 3-5 years that something has gone wacky. that's a crappy timeline too because you think it's great for just long enough to think it will be great and then there is some weird sticking issue.
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Paul2660

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2015, 05:22:20 pm »

That was my point about the room issues.  Heat and cold on the glass will expand and contract the entire print and eventually it will stick to the glass, and if any moisture gets between the glass and the print (which it will over time), then it sticks for good.

Glossy by far is the worst, and Epson Luster is much better was Wayne mentioned, if you can get it outgassed. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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PeterAit

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2015, 06:56:53 pm »

I didn't say it wasn't correct. I said it wasn't suitable. I was just requesting more explicit information. I should have made that more clear.

I want to know WHY it has to "breathe". People use that term all the time to describe (incorrectly or not) things like expansion, contraction, outgassing, absorption of moisture, drying out when moved to a different climate, etc. The reason I want to know why is so I can decide for myself if the reason requires leaving a space behind the glazing in my application.

For example, if the only reason is to allow outgassing, and a five year old print on non resin-coated paper no longer outgasses, and it is stored in a humidity-controlled environment, then perhaps it no longer requires space to "breathe". Maybe it would for other reasons, but I'm just appealing to people with more knowledge and experience than me to tell me what those reasons are.

Fair enough. The way I see it, if the paper is pressed right against the glass, it will have to be pressed perfectly evenly over the entire surface or else there will be visible irregularities that will detract from the appearance of the photo. This seems like it would be difficult to achieve. So, this isn't "breathing," really, but by having a small space between the print and the glass this problem will be avoided. As for "outgassing" and humidity, I don't know, but they may also be valid concerns.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2015, 07:38:31 pm »

for what it's worth my experience has been opposite Wayne. I actually find more issues with RC papers

mmm, I think I agreed with that statement, I said
"We’ve done a lot of framing with glazing, and even with matt papers and no space we have seen occasional problems ... albeit far fewer than with RC based papers. "

So my point was more about using matt doesn't necessarily mean there won't be problems, just perhaps less problematic than RC papers.

We rarely frame without the space anymore, and caution all buying of the problems they are perhaps facing. If they elect to not use a spacer, it is almost always mounted, which does help a little.
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dwswager

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2015, 11:09:16 am »

I have always used a mat or a spacer behind the frame rabbit to hold an inkjet print away from the glazing. What are the perceived problems with placing an inkjet print on glossy paper directly against glazing? "To allow it to breathe" is not a suitable answer.

My answer would be that unless you face mounted to the glass the optical phenomena will create weird effects as the print/backing warp slightly and parts are flush to the glass and parts aren't.  And I think the whole "breathe" thing is just poor language for the out-gassing that occurs.  Either way, I always let the print breathe/out-gas past it's peak before framing.

I have framed without mats, but I flush mount to a rigid substrate, look for frames that have reasonable overlap and provide tiny spacing to keep the print from touching the glazing.  But depends where this will be displayed and the standoff distance to the viewer.
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mstevensphoto

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2015, 11:15:53 am »

mmm, I think I agreed with that statement, I said
"We’ve done a lot of framing with glazing, and even with matt papers and no space we have seen occasional problems ... albeit far fewer than with RC based papers. "

So my point was more about using matt doesn't necessarily mean there won't be problems, just perhaps less problematic than RC papers.


sorry!!! some sort of pre-coffee dyslexia that is probably just really inattention to detail in reading your original statement. I don't frame without space any more either.
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mstevensphoto

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Re: Why provide an air space behind glazing?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2015, 11:17:25 am »

also, if you're wanting to frame with out mat but with gap there are some handy little clear plastic spacers you can get. They look pretty seamless and I don't find myself saying "hey, I notice the spacer" for me it's mat and glass or no glass at all.
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