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Author Topic: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan  (Read 10734 times)

Mike Sellers

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Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« on: February 23, 2015, 02:08:32 pm »

Is there a digital back that can equal the results of a drum scanner such as the Tango?
Mike
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byarvin

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2015, 02:46:20 pm »

I'm confused. Aren't digital backs for shooting original images and drum scanners for digitizing film. How do you compare them?

On second thought, the people on this board could do an amazing job of creating a comparison test.

How would you do it?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2015, 03:15:54 pm »

Yes.

I have direct comparison files of 4x5 film scanned using our our DT Advanced Film Scanning Kit with Film Positioning System and a Tango Drum scan operated by an industry veteran. Feel free to shoot me an email so I can send you the link (they are huge files, too big for us to post publicly).

Better yet, I'd be glad to work with you to do your own comparison for whatever format, emulsion, etc you would like to compare. We'll scan your material using our system and you can then have it scanned at whatever high-end scan shop you want to make your own comparison. Or if you'd like to visit us in NYC or at any of the many Cultural Heritage conference we attend each year (ACRL in Seattle and IS&T in LA are coming up soon, conferences in Cleveland and Boston are later in the year) we'd be glad to let you drive the system to run your own test.

The digital back is a very small part of this system. You do need a good digital back with high resolution, but equally important is making sure the film is very flat, the holder is very parallel, the lens is exceptionally good, and there is no vibration in the system (even if you are using strobe - you'd be shocked at how much vibration matters when you're shooting feature sizes measured in microns).

« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 03:59:19 pm by Doug Peterson »
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RobertJ

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2015, 03:45:59 pm »

Is there a digital back that can equal the results of a drum scanner such as the Tango?
Mike

Even if there is, why would you use Bayer instead of full-color, scanning back, or multi-shot for scanning something?  I certainly wouldn't, no matter how good Doug says his DB scans are.
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byarvin

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2015, 03:50:25 pm »

Doug, you mean a digital back as a scanner?

It's been my experience that cameras make less-than-perfect scanners and scanners make less-than-perfect cameras. (Exception: the view camera scanning backs of ten or fifteen years ago. They were amazing, and could scan too if you set them up more perfectly than I was able to.)

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2015, 03:53:25 pm »

Even if there is, why would you use Bayer instead of full-color, scanning back, or multi-shot for scanning something?  I certainly wouldn't, no matter how good Doug says his DB scans are.

Robert, if you'd ever like to do a real-world test, rather than relying on assumptions, please let me know.

We'd be very, very glad to have you include any scanning or multi-shot based system in the test.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 04:02:24 pm by Doug Peterson »
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byarvin

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2015, 03:57:42 pm »

I hope we haven't locked Mike, the original poster, out of the discussion!

My question stands: Mike, how did you mean to compare the two methods and what sort of methodology would working photographers in their studios choose?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2015, 03:57:50 pm »

Doug, you mean a digital back as a scanner?

It's been my experience that cameras make less-than-perfect scanners and scanners make less-than-perfect cameras. (Exception: the view camera scanning backs of ten or fifteen years ago. They were amazing, and could scan too if you set them up more perfectly than I was able to.)

There are numerous technical issues to overcome to use a camera as a scanner in a way that exceeds a scanner. Film flatness, planarity, lens sharpness, diffraction, focus accuracy, quality of underlying raw data (A/D convertor, quality of sensor etc), and avoiding vibration (even extremely low vibration caused by a focal plane 2nd-curtain when using MUP on a standard dSLR can be problematic at these magnifications). Of course I'm not sure which cameras you have tried to use as a film scanner. If the cameras you tested did not carefully account for each of these then the results would be quite poor indeed.

Our Film Positioning System and Film Scan Kit based around the DT RCam diligently addresses each of these technical issues. It produces excellent real world results by any standard of comparison.

If you'd ever like to coordinate a test on a piece of film, see our system in person, or otherwise talk more I'm always available.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 04:08:47 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2015, 04:19:41 pm »

Sorry I wasn`t more clear. I have a Tango scanner but I am thinking of going 100% digital capture. I do nature photography and I am thinking of switching from film.
Mike
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2015, 04:30:24 pm »

Sorry I wasn`t more clear. I have a Tango scanner but I am thinking of going 100% digital capture. I do nature photography and I am thinking of switching from film.
Mike

Ah! Now that is a more interesting and complex question.

If you ask a dozen photographers who have evaluated this you can get a dozen answers - all correct, at least for the needs/wants/criterium of the photographer making the evaluation.

My strong (selfish - disclaimer, I work at DT, the largest MF dealer in the US) suggestion is to work with a dealer to arrange a hands-on test of a few systems in your price range. Take the same image on film in the same manner you normally would (not a lab test, or a contrived test, but a real world example of how you typically shoot). Do the drum scan. Process the raw (asking the dealer for a few hints on how to get the most out of the raw file for a large print). Make prints from both. Put them up and see what you think.

The results will vary based on many factors: what lenses you use (great back with a crappy lens still sucks), which film size and emulsion you shoot and what digital back you're comparing to, how tight your technique is with both, and how good of a scanner operator you are.

Another big factor is whether you feel comfortable stitching. A quick left/right stitch on a technical camera can nearly double your resolution and provide flexibility of final aspect ratio. Pan-stitching can increase stitching in nearly unlimited amounts with a commensurate slowing/hassle of workflow (though compared to shooting/processing/cleaning/scanning/spotting film...). Both stitching methods have pros and cons and influence the style of shooting you can use, and can be perceived by different photographers as everything from fun to viscerally unpleasant. In theory you could also stitch film; though this is very rarely done in practice.

In my experience 4x5 film shooters started switching to digital backs around 20-30mp, 8x10 shooters didn't start switching until 60-80mp. This is different than saying that those are equivalent [format:resolution] pairs, just an indication of, historically, when we were able to sell to a large number of photographers using specific formats. Each photographer has their own workflow, needs, and criterium for selection.

The only thing that matters is what YOU think of each option, including the pros/cons of the workflow, relative financial and time costs, and the print result each option gives you.

Fortunately a good dealer can provide you the equipment to do your own tests, or send you raw files from their own tests, or set up a remote digital back demo or in person evaluation for you.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 04:37:37 pm by Doug Peterson »
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byarvin

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2015, 04:53:25 pm »

A fantastic question Mike. I'm anxious to hear about the results of people who are trying this with current gear.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2015, 05:03:00 pm »

Hi,

That question has been answered many times...

One answer is here: http://luminous-landscape.com/4x5-film-vs-digital/

And another one is here: https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison/

Personally I have only shot Pentax 67, mostly on Velvia, I also made a recent test on a Hasselblad with Addox CMS a low ISO film with very high resolution.

What I have seen is that digital performs a bit above it's pay grade. Film actually resolves higher on high contrast detail, but film images tend to be very noisy, and cannot extract a lot of low contrast detail. Interestingly enough, I have happened to make 70x100 cm prints from both 67 Provia scanned at 3200 PPI and 24 MP digital and they turned out to be pretty close. Both can be improved with some good processing I would think.

To make best use of film, I would say that you need to scan at 6000PPI. Just to mention, the Addox CMS I tested seemed to resolve 150-180 lp/mm on a Planar 80/2.8 at f/8,  that would be 7600-9100 PPI.

To sum up, when the P45+ arrived it was assumed to be able to match 4x5" scanned around 2000 PPI on a Tango.

This article may also offer some insight: http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html

Personally, I shoot with a Sony Alpha 99 (24 MP) with decent quality zooms, and also with a Hasselblad V-series camera and a P45+. I normally print at A2 size, and at that size I cannot really observe any difference between the two, but I am pretty sure the P45+ would win in sharpness at A1 size or larger.

There is of course more to image quality than sharpness.

Here are some test samples at f/4, f/8 and f/16 with Distagon 40/4 FLE, Distagon 50/4 FLE, Planar 80/2 CFE, Macro Planar 120/4 CFi: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/CastleShoot

And here are some sample shots:
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/

All those images come with raw files, so you can test them with the raw converter of your choice. Hint, if any files are in DNG format, the original raw file can be extracted by Adobe's DNG Converter that can be downloaded from Adobe at zero cost.

Best regards
Erik



Sorry I wasn`t more clear. I have a Tango scanner but I am thinking of going 100% digital capture. I do nature photography and I am thinking of switching from film.
Mike
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 05:32:35 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Doug Peterson

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2015, 05:12:24 pm »

That question has been answered many times...

One answer is here: http://luminous-landscape.com/4x5-film-vs-digital/

Yes, but the answer is not necessarily static :).

The raw files from the P45 would look significantly better today, as processed in Capture One Pro 8.

Significant improvement has been made in the quantity and quality of detail extracted in Capture One raw processing in the last several years.

byarvin

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2015, 05:20:12 pm »

And let's not forget that the comparison could well depend on results too. If images are destined for press reproduction, wouldn't that require a different workflow with different results?

Long ago, I was taught in a professional photography class that "everything is always changing." I suspect that comparisons like these are changing pretty fast.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2015, 05:29:19 pm »

Mike, I've done testing on my IQ260 compared to Portra 160, shot through the same camera with the same lens.  The images (with a drum scan of the neg) felt very, very close.  Dynamic range was almost identical.  Palettes were a little different.  The only reason I can see in shooting film for landscape is to make bigger prints from a single image (as you can scan to a higher res than the captures).

I made some 20x24 prints of both types and kind of preferred seeing grain in the soft, out of focus areas where digital felt more sterile... entirely subjective.

If you're happy with your film workflow then keep on keepin on.  If you think you might prefer the workflow advantages of digital then do that.  Whatever floats your boat... both processes will produce exceptional results in the right hands.

IMHO,
CB

egor

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2015, 05:33:13 pm »

Hi,
My standards and clients are pretty high end for this stuff.
Been drum scanning professionally for decades (currently use a Tango) and have tested using simple setup with a Leaf 80MP back and a high quality SK makro lens. The results were good, but not as good as the drum.
Then I tested against Doug's DT Scan system as mentioned above and the results are phenomenal.
The main focus for us was a modern system for scanning that replaces the drum. The advantages to the DT system are numerous but my main needs are addressed:

1. Runs using modern supported OS (Tango requires maintaining legacy old unsupported Macs or WindowsXP machines, and old unsupported SCSI connections)
2. Production speed. The manual and highly skilled experienced drum scanner operator are 10-20x slower than the DT MFD system
3. Quality and resolution of scans is equal to or exceeds best Tango drumscans, and fits into existing workflow with existing hardware and software workflow used throughout studio

There are many many more reasons for doing this (using a camera as a scanner) but the reasons outlined above are sufficient enough. Doug is absolutely correct and has been perfecting this system for some time. I can attest to his knowledge and dedication to the subject and problem.
As far as whether this will work in a professional pre-press environment for high-end clientele: The answer is yes, definitely, absolutely
Anyone who has to oil mount originals and drumscan them, then clean them, then post proc the scans knows what I am getting at.
As far as the resolution and detail differences, I have tested that as well and yes, film has certain qualities that digital does not and vice versa, but I think its a moot point to be argued by hipsters with lots of time on their hands ;)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 05:35:32 pm by egor »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2015, 05:36:02 pm »

Hi,

Just as a comment. Digital is very smooth if well exposed and well processed. Adding some artificial grain to digital exposures may make some sense.

Best regards
Erik

Mike, I've done testing on my IQ260 compared to Portra 160, shot through the same camera with the same lens.  The images (with a drum scan of the neg) felt very, very close.  Dynamic range was almost identical.  Palettes were a little different.  The only reason I can see in shooting film for landscape is to make bigger prints from a single image (as you can scan to a higher res than the captures).

I made some 20x24 prints of both types and kind of preferred seeing grain in the soft, out of focus areas where digital felt more sterile... entirely subjective.

If you're happy with your film workflow then keep on keepin on.  If you think you might prefer the workflow advantages of digital then do that.  Whatever floats your boat... both processes will produce exceptional results in the right hands.

IMHO,
CB
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Doug Peterson

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2015, 05:46:39 pm »

I made some 20x24 prints of both types and kind of preferred seeing grain in the soft, out of focus areas where digital felt more sterile... entirely subjective.

Have you tried the film grain tool in Capture One v8. It is fundamentally very different than any other film grain "filter" used in other software. It's actually creating a physics-based model of stochastic film grain with specific (and user adjustable) responsivity and structure and "exposing" the model to the light from the digital raw file. You can see the two interacting by sliding exposure up and down with Film Grain applied - individual "flakes" of the grain will pop on and off analogous to the behavior of silver halide crystals.

Nerdy terms aside... it's very very pretty, and goes a long way to creating that same non-sterility in continuous tones.

Chris Barrett

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2015, 06:24:20 pm »

Actually, Doug... yes... and you're right, it's really nice.  I forget to take advantage of it sometimes.  Man, image-makers have such a rich supply of tools available to us today.  We really have nothing to complain about.

Ken R

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Re: Digital back vs Tango Drum Scan
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2015, 08:52:14 pm »

Have you tried the film grain tool in Capture One v8. It is fundamentally very different than any other film grain "filter" used in other software. It's actually creating a physics-based model of stochastic film grain with specific (and user adjustable) responsivity and structure and "exposing" the model to the light from the digital raw file. You can see the two interacting by sliding exposure up and down with Film Grain applied - individual "flakes" of the grain will pop on and off analogous to the behavior of silver halide crystals.

Nerdy terms aside... it's very very pretty, and goes a long way to creating that same non-sterility in continuous tones.

I have used it. Didn't have a clue of the underlying "inner" workings but I Love how it looks. :D Very cool.

Regarding digital replacing large format film. In pure resolution terms I would say 8x10 still has the edge. Well worked 8x10 from capture to scan output is just jaw dropping and has a look that is just so smooth and detailed that is hard to duplicate. The color depth and color gradations of 8x10 film are just insane.

No digital single image capture can touch 8x10 (again, everything being top quality).

A multiple shot pano /stitch using a 60-80mp MFD Tech camera rig might get really close though.

 
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