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Author Topic: camera decision for behind the scenes  (Read 6458 times)

orc73

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camera decision for behind the scenes
« on: February 19, 2015, 03:12:47 am »

Hi all

I'm photographer and my gf does some great behind the scenes from my shootings edited in FCP X.
We also plan to produce other documentary youtube videos.

We need to get a proper camera to record now.
Usualy angles need to be changed a lot, and space is always limited. So tripod is not an option here.
Also budget is a concern. We would love to have a controlable DOF. A7s would be great on that, but above the budget.


Did look at following options:

L100 Pana:
+good video
++price
+sharp
+low light
+fast focus(also manual with peak)
--dof never shallow
-no mic input, don't know if we really need a mic that much though
-Stabilisation as far as I know not really good

Oly om-d e-m5 mk2
++stabilisation great, even with fast 3rd party lenses, or panasonic 20mm f1.7
++interchangeable lenses(by the way does lense sharpness matter so much for video? as the resolution is not on photo level anyway, would a voigtlander nokton at 0.95 be sharp enough?)
+easy to focus manual
+good autofocus
+mic for good audio
-price higher

bmpcc
+could have a used one good price
++great quality
-stabilisation depend on lenses
---lenses with stabilisation are usualy not that fast (both for dof and light)
-needs work on files a lot
-battery life


GH4 is a bit over budget and lacks stabilisation with fast lenses.

Any other options? anything to correct?


best regards
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 05:13:21 am by orc73 »
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sanjaynarayan

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 07:00:04 am »

may i suggest the canon 70d...(or the upcoming T6i)...
killer af in video... our go to
camera for fast-handheld-changing light- scenarios, cutaway shots...
though no match for a7s in low light...

www.sanjaynarayan.com
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flashfredrikson

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2015, 04:48:54 am »

You really want to pay attention to sound/mic options, sooner or later sound will become a concern, it can add so much to your videos. So maybe don't spend all on the camera but save some money for a decent mic.

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bcooter

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2015, 02:03:39 pm »

I've used or tested, or own most of the cameras you've mentioned.

It all depends on what you want.

The bmcpc is really just a small cinema camera that gets big by the time you put everyting on it to make it work.  It needs a cage, a metabones, or the fastest voight lenses, a whole bunch of batteries and it will shoot like a large cinema camera, with manual focus that takes great care.  The reward is a film like super 16mm type look.  The downside is you better be good at shooting motion to make it work.

Also it has lecia like build quality.  I know a lot of people, including myself that bought them when they were 450 bucks but honestly I very rarely use it.

The 70d as mentioned has the best autofocus and will work with most canon lenses.  No sound sampling as there is no headphone jack, but it does have sound bars, though the sound pre amps are somewhat crisp.
As mentioned the 70d noises up at anything past 800 iso, though there are amazing noise reduction fixes in software, so it's not the end of the world.  Canons have a "Canon look" which is pleasing to most, somewhat unfilm like, though we routinely intercut 70d footage next to RED footage and with proper grading you can match the look.

I say before every production we won't use the 70d and stick with the REDs and every production 1/3 of the footage comes out of the 70d, just because it's easy fast and fluid for lifestyle work.

The Sony I picked up and put down as it doesn't fit the type of work we do.

I have an em1 and em5 but will test the em5 II mid march.   The stabilizzation is a wonder, close to any movi or ronin without the weight, but the tracking autofocus for video compared to a 70d is way off as it hunts.

You mentioned a gh4, but I'd look at a gh3.   It shoots a thick file, has autofocus close to the 70d though it's small and needs a cage like wooden camera to give it a little heft to smooth it out.  The sound preamps are ok, (not great) but pretty good and it's a very solid reliable camera that can be bought on the cheap.  For some reason the US versions are only ntsc so if you travel to other countries you'll need a pal version to stop practical light flicker.

Since your working in FCP ex, I guess your grading on the timeline which is ok, though not optimal.   Just like still photography, learning DiVinci well is as important as learning photoshop for stills.

Bottom line is most of these cameras are good enough for broadcast production, obviously for bts maybe even overkill.  The only thing to worry about is except for the bmcpc, all of these cameras will alaise on horizontal lines since the sensors have some line skipping rather than capturing the complete sensor readout.  If you prepare for it you'll be fine, but it's something you have to always be aware of.

Since your probably not going to have a boom mic, the best on camera mic I've found (and I've bought them all) is by Sony, don't remember the number, but it's powered so it works with about every camera.

If you have time it's a good idea to go wireless with senhauser lavs though that's a way different subject on how to make sound work professionally.

IMO

BC
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orc73

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2015, 08:17:10 am »

thanks for the input about sound and the canon 70!

And thanks for the detailed answer from bcooter!

I usualy don't like the canon look. when shooting with magic lantern it would be raw though and maybe easy corrected.

I just tryed the oly m5 mk2,  I never had olympus, but was not impressed by the focus. Automatic WB and colors were nice.
Besides I did not like the handling.

I tested a GH3 yesterday, impressive focus, though no real(shallow) dof for my taste, and colors not what I like, auto wb was off.
Similar to the LX100 actualy.
Having scenes in focus might well be the most important feature at bts though. :)

My fuji is actualy doing better colors and white balance, just the focus is not good(besides moire and noise). Manual has no focus aid and AF is just sitting where it starts.
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bcooter

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2015, 12:33:13 pm »

thanks for the input about sound and the canon 70!

And thanks for the detailed answer from bcooter!

I usualy don't like the canon look. when shooting with magic lantern it would be raw though and maybe easy corrected.

I just tryed the oly m5 mk2,  I never had olympus, but was not impressed by the focus. Automatic WB and colors were nice.
Besides I did not like the handling.

I tested a GH3 yesterday, impressive focus, though no real(shallow) dof for my taste, and colors not what I like, auto wb was off.
Similar to the LX100 actualy.
Having scenes in focus might well be the most important feature at bts though. :)

My fuji is actualy doing better colors and white balance, just the focus is not good(besides moire and noise). Manual has no focus aid and AF is just sitting where it starts.


I don't like the Canon look just because for me it doesn't come out of camera looking like film, but we routinely grade the 70d next to the RED footage and I can match them exactly.

Film convert plug in placed in DiVinci will even the files up and "film them up" pretty quickly.

There are a lot of plug ins for everything that can cost tens of thousands to a few hundred, but learning DiVinci is more important than anything you'll do in regards to out of camera colour.

I can even make the gh3 file look good but I'll admit it's more work, unless you shoot everything with the gh3 then it's pretty easy, though the panasonics are very biased towards yellow.

Take this in a good way, but your asking a lot from an inexpensive camera if you want stabilization, a thick file, super 35mm sensor size and a low cost.

A 70d is $800.  Next up would be a in the $5000 to $7000 range, like a c100 mark II, used Scarlet, the New Blackmagic, etc. and you would need lenses in the $4,000 each range to get the full effect.

I'm not selling Canon, but the 70d pulls focus like nothing I've ever seen.   We did a actor running through a crowded street scene in London with a 70 to 200 on the 70d and it tracked all the way through staying on his face for the full clip.   I never thought it would work but it did.

The Gh3 will do the same thing and like I said has a thicker file, just the colour is more difficult to hit.

The 7dII is suppose to be a little better, but it doesn't have a touch screen or an articulating viewer, which makes no sense but Canon seems to do what they want to do regardless of what people say.

Why Canon doesn't put that pdaf capability on all of their cameras is beyond me but if you watch areas that will moire, use lenses that have stabilization and learn to use the camera in a thoughtful manner, it will produce what you want.

If you need more in camera stabilization then a Ronin or a Movi style stabilizer will work but we do a lot of things to track movement.

I have a skateboard we've mounted a mafer clamp on with a C stand arm and an assistant pulls me.    It's a little dangerous but it makes for some great footage, so there is always a way.

Good Luck.

IMO

BC
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sanjaynarayan

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 12:15:59 am »

purely for BTS - a dslr would fit only if shallow DOF is desired...otherwise a traditional camcorder
would be a better bet ( even our old venerable canon XL1 had such wonderful audio )...all DSLRs are
challenged for video one way or the other and so  here's what we use now...GH4 in good light/studio/green screen/slomo/...
A7s for low light...Blackmagic Cinema for Raw/ Davinci...but if an AD insists on an Epic then we rent...


www.sanjaynarayan.com
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orc73

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2015, 03:02:32 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tymJMZzpreY&spfreload=10
example shows the problems we are facing :)
Of course my girlfriend is not trained on using cameras yet.

I understand I ask to much for my budget, of course.
As an artist I would always like to be able to be flexible in any features to improve color and dof.
As for behind the scenes maybe that is not really necessary, just something that would allow us to learn and grow.

Maybe end up filming with my current fuji e2, and invest in something better later when I (hopefully) have more budget.
Thanks for the advice so much!
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 03:09:35 am by orc73 »
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orc73

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2015, 10:43:41 am »

@sanjaynarayan: thanks I understand the dslr with big sensor might not be perfect for fast bts work. I was just thinking to have a cam that can fit all my needs, looks like that is not possible.
The a7s uses sony steadyshot stabilisation? is that any good? I would have a Leica 50mm f2 R lense, which I put the a-mount on. Sadly with the Sony confusing mount strategy now I would need an adapter for even that.

@bc: if you talk about canon 70d files, you mean ML raw or original canon files?


As both of you recommended the 70d, I might have a look on that. It would be in budget reach.

Also I would need a lense, what would be a good fast lense for video? I don't need a big zoom range, a fix focal length would be ok...but then I loose the stabilisation again.

How critical is lense sharpness(resolution power) anyway in video? as it's a slower resolution then most stills deliver, it should not be a high demand?!





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sanjaynarayan

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2015, 11:42:00 am »

...we've had problems with adaptors on the sony a7s...can't recommend that route...infact ended up
getting a sony zoom just for this camera...ML on the canons is not for the faint hearted specially
on a commercial shoot...i don't know if ML supports 70D yet...the 18-135  kit lens for the 70D is pretty
good though slow...i have no personal experience with the new IS canon primes-24/28/35...


www.sanjaynarayan.com
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bcooter

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2015, 12:23:10 pm »

@sanjaynarayan: thanks I understand the dslr with big sensor might not be perfect for fast bts work. I was just thinking to have a cam that can fit all my needs, looks like that is not possible.
The a7s uses sony steadyshot stabilisation? is that any good? I would have a Leica 50mm f2 R lense, which I put the a-mount on. Sadly with the Sony confusing mount strategy now I would need an adapter for even that.

@bc: if you talk about canon 70d files, you mean ML raw or original canon files?


As both of you recommended the 70d, I might have a look on that. It would be in budget reach.

Also I would need a lense, what would be a good fast lense for video? I don't need a big zoom range, a fix focal length would be ok...but then I loose the stabilisation again.

How critical is lense sharpness(resolution power) anyway in video? as it's a slower resolution then most stills deliver, it should not be a high demand?!




All of this depends on what you shoot.  I saw your video example and I don't see camera issues, do see white balance and editing that is kind of rough.   Don't take that as a diss, I'm just saying doing even a short movie is difficult, from capture to edit to post.

In fact when I get requests for bts movies we now just normally shoot them in stills with a little bit of added footage for value and a voice over to bind the story.  I think most people are aware of prep, shoot, screen videos and not that it's a bad thing, just not a unique thing and without a vo or some sound it doesn't tell the viewer much, other than you shot a project.

The reason we do stills for the major players is invariably lighting on crew and clients is awful because the lights are set up for the subject not the players, so the last thing you want to do is show yourself or your clients in an unflattering way.  

I wouldn't worry about raw, or high spec def.  Your not going to probably view these videos at anything over 720P and even then streaming at 2000 kps blocks up, so you could have 4k RED footage and it wouldn't change things that much.

Your much better off shooting a slightly flatter log (not s log or c log or technicolor flat) but just a little more latitude to allow for some movement of the footage.

You have to remember that most of these small spec cameras (other than blackmagic) shoot an h264 codec which was never meant for capture, but instead for streaming and content delivery.

The makers have done a good job of making these limited codecs work, but they're not optimal for capture in the pro world, though the pro world has moved all over the place.

I just and only mentioned the 70d because it's easy.  If your familiar with Canon products, the learning curve is zip and if you have a few fast stabilized zooms your covered.

but all of the cameras you mentioned can produce a professional product, though you'll need to stabilize them, have a real storyboard or shot list.  Add some additional continuous light to cover the wb issues of tungsten modeling lights and room practicals.

But once again, (and take this as constructive, not negative) you'll be a lot better off shooting your videos with some kind of tripod or monopod support, having a list of what crafts the story, upping your editing and coloring skills along with a vo or something other than only music to tell the story.

IMO

BC

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orc73

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 12:51:13 pm »

thanks for the input :)

indeed color editing is a major issue. the seen sony rx1r files or the fcpx seem to me really difficult to edit color. Other files I recorded with the fuji are much better, also much better auto white balance, which is probably the main issue.
I will have a look into davinci.
And yes sound is on the list too :)
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orc73

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2015, 10:01:39 pm »

I was able to test the 70d and its just amazing. And even much cheaper then the mft cams.
Which lense do you guys use on it?
The 18-55 and 18-135 are fair priced bundles. I would of course prefer at least f2.8 and keep image stabilisation and silent AF. :)
Manual focus does not seem like an option to me on that camera.
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sanjaynarayan

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2015, 10:43:54 pm »

...for its bundled price the 18-135 is a steal...great for run and gun...we have the cheap/but sharp 40/2.8 STM pancake lens-non
stabilized but great on a monopod...will add the cheap 24/EF-S/2.8 STM pancake...great for small gimbals...


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bcooter

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2015, 06:08:41 pm »

I was able to test the 70d and its just amazing. And even much cheaper then the mft cams.
Which lense do you guys use on it?
The 18-55 and 18-135 are fair priced bundles. I would of course prefer at least f2.8 and keep image stabilisation and silent AF. :)
Manual focus does not seem like an option to me on that camera.

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens  around $850.

This and a 70 to 200 and there is little you can't shoot in motion.

I would suggest a wooden camera cage, because it gives a little heft to the camera and is easier to hand hold when view the lcd.

It also allows you to mount a small sound recorder so you can sample sound on head phones if you so wish.

IMO

BC


BTW:  For motion imaging, never use auto white balance but set a manual balance that will move a lot of ways.  Then is something to test for a few minutes before you start shooting.
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orc73

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2015, 03:19:13 am »

Thanks the 18-135mm would be a great range and I tested it, fast and silent focus and IS.

F2.8 would be of course prefered, I saw the 17-50mm Tamron got the best reviews on stabilisation and is much cheaper. below 300USD new.
Any reason not to go for that one?
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orc73

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2015, 03:39:09 am »

unbelievable, a lot of prework should be done to buy a camera. Surprisingly some shops think we walk in a shop and walk out with a new camera, some even think without even having a demo model to try :)

Anyway: looks like Tamron 17-50mm can cause problems in video mode, they seem to have a software update on that, but when you buy the new lense, probably can't make sure about that.
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bcooter

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2015, 03:36:29 pm »

unbelievable, a lot of prework should be done to buy a camera. Surprisingly some shops think we walk in a shop and walk out with a new camera, some even think without even having a demo model to try :)

Anyway: looks like Tamron 17-50mm can cause problems in video mode, they seem to have a software update on that, but when you buy the new lense, probably can't make sure about that.

Information is difficult to come by, i.e. what lenses work with face detection, track focusing, etc.   Even Canon's new c100 mark II doesn't really tell you other than they say face detection only works with stm lenses which are usually slow.

The two lenses I listed will work and shot 99% of anything thrown at you.  You do need at least a monopod and/or a set of sticks.   Chris S. of this forum turned me onto the small gitzo fluid head (which is really a fluid head vs friction and is light weight.  I use it weekly.

I know you want to toss focus and want stabilization and autofocus and good out of camera color.

Once again that's a lot to ask.

I mentioned this before but if budget is a concern really look at the panasonic gh3. (not 4).  The autofocus is a close match or equal to the 70d, it has decent sound sampling with headphones and mic in ports, mini hdmi not micro and with it's high bit rate shoots a much deeper file.  It's much easier to grade than the 70d footage except under mixed tungsten practical light.

Also the gh3 has two stablized lenses one is a 12 to 35 (24 to 70_ and the other is 35 to 100 (70 to 200) at 2.8.  2.8 isn't that fast with micro 43 though the gh3 has less noise at 800 to 1000 iso than the 70d.

The gh3's menu and controls are a close mimic to a 5d2 which means the learning curve is immediate.

I use it all the time and it's much sharper than the 70d, though I'll admit I use the 70d a lot for lifestyle.

The upside of all of these cameas are if you don't like them you can sell them with little loss.

IMO

BC
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orc73

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2015, 12:16:25 am »

Thanks BC

Unfortunately I currently live in Thailand, places here are all over the place and when ordering from other countries, I need to pay bribes at customs to get my goods eventualy. So the GH3 costs me much more then a 70d.

On the other hand I found a used 17-55mm f2.8, so that would be a nice combo with the 70d and fit my budget.
I could also have a canon 6d and a 24-105mm L (both used) for virtualy the same price as the 70d+17-55mm.

Both should give similar depth of field, except for having extra reach on the 24-105mm.
The f2.8 might give more light though, while the 6d might catch that with better ISO.
70d trumps with the AF and better moire control. Detail and high ISO seems to be much on the 6d.

Which combo would you guys prefer?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 01:38:47 am by orc73 »
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bcooter

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Re: camera decision for behind the scenes
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2015, 01:49:29 pm »

It's so hard to say what someone should buy.  I know the 17 to 55 is always on my 70d.  

If you want autofocus the 70d wins for the price actually any price.    If you want better files then the prices go up 4x to get there.

I personally think the 70d is a fluke that Canon let slip through thinking no pros will use it, but I know a lot of operators, dps, that own one.  Some won't mention they use the autofocus, but they do.

Autofocus is dissed in film making mostly because prior to the new pdaf sensors autofocus would hunt but honestly it's so good that it's almost crazy.

The only downside is with the 70d the iso gets noisy at 800 and above.   800 is easy to fix in post above that you lose some detail, though you won't notice it waist up images, full length you will.

Still for the price it's impossible to go wrong.

IMO

BC



Thanks BC

Unfortunately I currently live in Thailand, places here are all over the place and when ordering from other countries, I need to pay bribes at customs to get my goods eventualy. So the GH3 costs me much more then a 70d.

On the other hand I found a used 17-55mm f2.8, so that would be a nice combo with the 70d and fit my budget.
I could also have a canon 6d and a 24-105mm L (both used) for virtualy the same price as the 70d+17-55mm.

Both should give similar depth of field, except for having extra reach on the 24-105mm.
The f2.8 might give more light though, while the 6d might catch that with better ISO.
70d trumps with the AF and better moire control. Detail and high ISO seems to be much on the 6d.

Which combo would you guys prefer?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 02:00:45 pm by bcooter »
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