What defines a Fine Art printer?

[na goodman]

You guys are too funny!

[BobShaw]

Bob tell me is your end result a tif file?
If so i can understand your view i think that a print is just a paper copy.

Yes, a 16bit AdobeRGB TIF. That goes in a folder called Final and every print comes from it.
As I say, always keen to learn.

[Geraldo Garcia]

The output of all this on a correctly calibrated workflow is a file which is then printed in MiragePrint or similar using a custom profile made for that paper and printer. That is all I want from a print person. Some photographers will not want to do this and should just send the raw file to someone who can, who would then be performing the role of post production.

Ok, but you do realize that I was never talking about "send the raw file to someone who would then be performing the role of post production"? Nothing necessarily wrong with that for those who like, but even someone who actually makes their own post-production and produces "finished 16bit tiff files" may (actually should) do it on a output independent way. That means he/she should produce a final image that looks good on the screen but was not (yet) tailored for an specific output. When the output is decided the output file (adjusted for the output) will be created and here may lay the problem. From what you say you seems to be interested on understanding/taking control of this part, which is great, but most people don't know and don't want to know output specific details. They want someone with knowledge and experience on that specific output to act as a consultant and to alert them of possible problems and suggest solutions. Note that, as I said before, the artist should always be in charge and taking the decisions.

A quick example that just happened: A regular client that performs his own post production and sofproof brought a finished file that was pretty much ready for printing, but when we performed the final sofproof here he noticed an extremely saturated green on some leaves that he was unable to see on his calibrated display. Turns out that his (excellent) display has an sRGB gamut and the saturated greens of his ProPhotoRGB file was not visible (usually the systems perform a perceptual conversion to the monitor profile for exhibition). His reaction to the extremely saturated greens was something like "yikes", so I suggested a selective desaturation of the greens isolating that area. He agreed, it was done and the printed file was exactly how he wanted. It is completely different of someone sending the raw file.

[Mark Lindquist]

Good example of the service a fine art printer provides Geraldo. 

[JRSmit]

Yes, a 16bit AdobeRGB TIF. That goes in a folder called Final and every print comes from it.
As I say, always keen to learn.

Well Bob, i am also very keen to learn. Please elaborate how you get your files printed exactly as they are. You see if i just take a comparison between the color space of a typical printer paper combo versus a typical working color space of a image(processed, not raw), i cannot see how to get the file printed as it is. See attached image as an example:

[BobShaw]

Turns out that his (excellent) display has an sRGB gamut and the saturated greens of his ProPhotoRGB file was not visible (usually the systems perform a perceptual conversion to the monitor profile for exhibition).

Ok, this is now getting useful. I would not consider a monitor that only covered sRGB to be an excellent display for what he is trying to achieve if he was working in ProPhotoRGB. I think most people at this point would be aware that saturated cyan will be beyond that.

I take it that you are referring to fine art printers role in adjusting the gamut to match the printer rather than doing selective adjustments to create emotion?

If using an AdobeRGB workflow then how would you ensure that the gamut was within range if you needed to send it to a third party?

(JRSmit, your diagram is unfortunately too small and unlabelled to be of any value in understanding your point. However again it purely seems to be a gamut issue.)

 

[Plateau Light]

If using an AdobeRGB workflow then how would you ensure that the gamut was within range if you needed to send it to a third party?

(JRSmit, your diagram is unfortunately too small and unlabelled to be of any value in understanding your point. However again it purely seems to be a gamut issue.)

 

That is a complex question with countless solutions however the most repeatable solution is to make sure colors are NOT clipping the Adobe RGB workspace.
If you clip gamut them the problems creep in and soft proofing falls short of its promise especially as you go wider in workspace gamut.

[BobShaw]

My solution at this point is to put it into Mirage Print and select the paper and it tells me if it is out of gamut. However that only works for printers I have. if the ink set was different then it wouldn't work.

[Phil Indeblanc]

I think sometimes we forget to take into account the difference between subtractive vs additive /reflective color(maybe my titles are not 100%, but).

 This is something we know looks like what you expect on the screen things look fine, where light is inclusively creating white, and translating that to reflective medium gives the printer a chance to make a push and pull in contrast, color and other aspects that with experience and understanding  can made a "more" exceptional print translation of the file. I have used a number of a good monitors and in good calibration, and aside from a CMYK output intention, in RGB there is more to it than soft proofing. Not often, but in some papers and combinations, I save the print file separate than the master file, as I had to tweak it a bit more than what looked correct on the screen.  At least that's what I have come across on occasion, and often in my BW contrast needs.

[BobShaw]

My solution at this point is to put it into Mirage Print and select the paper and it tells me if it is out of gamut. However that only works for printers I have. if the ink set was different then it wouldn't work.

It appears from research today that the answer to third party printers is to hard proof locally using The Absolute Colorimetric rendering intent.

[Geraldo Garcia]

Ok, this is now getting useful. I would not consider a monitor that only covered sRGB to be an excellent display for what he is trying to achieve if he was working in ProPhotoRGB. I think most people at this point would be aware that saturated cyan will be beyond that.

Some Eizo ColorEdge display have sRGB gamut and they are excellent, but not wide gamut. Even the display with the widest gamut available on the market would not be able to display most of the prophoto space and not even some achievable colors of some paper/printer combination. It is perfectly possible to work like that when you know how to "fly by instruments", but it is also easier to make mistakes. 

I take it that you are referring to fine art printers role in adjusting the gamut to match the printer rather than doing selective adjustments to create emotion?

Yes, things like that but not only that. Sometimes a client choses a paper that will never achieve his desired level of, lets say, D-max (and he doesn't even know what D-max means). He may need some advice on choosing another paper or, if the paper cannot be changed by some reason, be informed of the possible actions and outcomes. Sometimes the issue is the desired size versus level of detail and anyone who does not have everyday experience printing big images may make wrong assumptions on this matter. There are many, many ways a fine art printer may help an artist without interfering on creative process.

[BobShaw]

So perhaps the definition of a fine art printer is a person who consults, colour manages and produces the output stage of a fine art print.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Fine Art digital printer....Just considering, there other printing methods that take other skills not involving a inkjet printer.

Maybe... Someone who understands the tech and tools available today in the reproduction process of taking a digital file and making a print with an intentional end result.

[stamper]

Is it possible that someone who calls themselves a fine art printer is guilty of being seen as smug and pretentious?

[Phil Indeblanc]

I can totally see that in some cases Stamper.

[BobShaw]

Is it possible that someone who calls themselves a fine art printer is guilty of being seen as smug and pretentious?

That is not a crime. If you don't think you are good then how do you expect anyone else to think you are good. If you can prove it then even better.

[enduser]

I'm still waiting for adefinition of "fine art", other than "I'ts what the customer gives me".

[stamper]

That is not a crime. If you don't think you are good then how do you expect anyone else to think you are good. If you can prove it then even better.

If you are a client of a "fine art printer" and you exude smugness and pretension then it could be off putting to potential clients. I have seen adverts from photographers who state they can undertake any kind of work including weddings. Another type to be wary of. Why not just declare ...photographer for hire?

[Ernst Dinkla]

I'm still waiting for adefinition of "fine art", other than "I'ts what the customer gives me".

I have printed for "artists" since approx 1975. Silkscreen printing in my own shop, some other techniques when I founded, with some other guys, a collective artist's printing facility in 1981 (Daglicht, Eindhoven) and inkjet printing since 1999 in my shop again. "Artists" as I do not believe you would expect them to be alike in all qualities, so you may not expect that Fine Art printers are all made from the same mold. My view on it my differ from the next guy. I have no disdain for the local T-shirt printer, what comes from his shop has a market too and when his customers are happy with the product he must have some skills. Fine Art is already a superlative I would not use and is less used over here as we say Art which covers a wider field with less pretentions.

What I find important in my work is to be able to understand the artist's goals or if I do not understand them, create a situation where it works for the artist, as long as my shop is not destroyed one way or another. Sometimes I have to warn them about possible problems but there has to be some flexibility like one adapts to the data and pieces they bring in. Wallet sizes differ too. I think my broad interests in technology helps but I know other art printers that are more practical in their approach and they have good solutions too.  The other important thing is integrity in what you supply; in what the artists, galleries, musea, art buyers expect in print runs, media use, claims made. Yes, I have seen some cheating as well in that environment but I try to keep my end of the process clean as that lasts in time.

If you check the knowledge of people here that write in some forums like the color management forum then I see that printing knowledge can be found in both art printers and the broader range of the printing facilities. It is is a good thing if it is available in an art print shop but does not work well if the other criteria summed up are not met.

Some knowledge of art history, trends in art is convenient. An art printer will not appreciate all the art made in his shop but he should assist on all kinds of projects. In that sense his place is not different from a shoemaker repairing the customer's shoes of whatever fashion. If you want to be creative in art then do that in your own work and not by steering other artist's work in a direction you like. That said when asked by the artist which solution could be found for this or that expression of the work at hand you might suggest some ways with empathy, intelligence for the artist and the work. You should have experience in this technology that goes beyond that of the artist so there is a source. Suggest, not dictate. Give more than one solution.

YMMV

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[enduser]

Thanks, Ernst.  That is so well expressed that not much more need be said.