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Author Topic: They Just Donít Get It  (Read 22057 times)

dwswager

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They Just Donít Get It
« on: February 16, 2015, 11:15:30 AM »

With Respect to the Rantatorial They Just Donít Get It:

Even allowing for the fact that there are 2 different types of photographers, those that need the best image they can get out of the camera immediately and those that need the best image data for later post processing, it is frustrating that camera companies can't understand that the best way to differentiate their products is by making them more usable.

I'm at least happy that my Nikon D810 has 3 of the 4 function mentioned covered; missing the digital based exposure metering.   The Highlight Weighted metering is a nice start, now all they need to do is have a way to tell the camera to set the exposure to that point, instead of just using it as a limiting function.

Oh, and both the D810 and D7100 allow manual mode when using Auto ISO.  In fact, as long as there is not a significant risk of overexposure, I typically use Manual mode with auto ISO to shoot sports.  If, in bright conditions, I might be at the bottom limit of the ISO range, especially with the D7100 bottoming out at ISO 100, I will switch to shutter or aperture priority.
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Iluvmycam

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2015, 01:48:06 PM »

With Respect to the Rantatorial They Just Donít Get It:

Even allowing for the fact that there are 2 different types of photographers, those that need the best image they can get out of the camera immediately and those that need the best image data for later post processing, it is frustrating that camera companies can't understand that the best way to differentiate their products is by making them more usable.

I'm at least happy that my Nikon D810 has 3 of the 4 function mentioned covered; missing the digital based exposure metering.   The Highlight Weighted metering is a nice start, now all they need to do is have a way to tell the camera to set the exposure to that point, instead of just using it as a limiting function.

Oh, and both the D810 and D7100 allow manual mode when using Auto ISO.  In fact, as long as there is not a significant risk of overexposure, I typically use Manual mode with auto ISO to shoot sports.  If, in bright conditions, I might be at the bottom limit of the ISO range, especially with the D7100 bottoming out at ISO 100, I will switch to shutter or aperture priority.

It was a sad day they invented the program dial to replace the shutter speed dial and Fuji invented focus by wire. These 2 terrible inventions came from camera fondling engineers that are not high level documentary photogs. The most that should have been done was an A setting for shutter speed and an A setting for aperture. 

The trend is to dummy down lens and cams by removing manual controls. That is what you get when you have camera fondlers running things.
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Mike D. B.

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2015, 02:04:50 PM »

It was a sad day they invented the program dial to replace the shutter speed dial and Fuji invented focus by wire.
I completely agree.  Focus by wire is absolutely horrible!  I don't know if it's cheaper to produce than proper cam/gear focusing or it was done simply done to introduce change.

jjj

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2015, 02:28:22 PM »

It was a sad day they invented the program dial to replace the shutter speed dial and Fuji invented focus by wire. These 2 terrible inventions came from camera fondling engineers that are not high level documentary photogs. The most that should have been done was an A setting for shutter speed and an A setting for aperture. 
Are you talking about shutter speed dials like Fuji has resurrected on the XT-1? If so I hated them, unergonomic and clunky and was one of the reasons I bought Olympus OM cameras as they had shutter dial around lens mount instead, a far more ergonomic location. They above all other makes seemed to have designers who were actually photographers. The retro shutter dial on the Fuji mars an otherwise excellent camera design.

Quote
The trend is to dummy down lens and cams by removing manual controls. That is what you get when you have camera fondlers running things.
The only cameras that I ever see that are missing manual controls are aimed at people who do not want such things.  :-\
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vartkes

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2015, 04:24:48 PM »

A very well thought out and communicated article. Absolutely, the arrogance of Canon (I am enslaved by Canon L lenses I own) and Nikon is unbelievable. I am hoping and praying that soon Fuji or Olympus will hear you Michael and come through with some of these implementations that will turn the market leaders on their heads. By them I will be ready to trade in the Canon door-stops and buy the lighter and more capable gear.

Telecaster

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2015, 04:41:40 PM »

I completely agree.  Focus by wire is absolutely horrible!  I don't know if it's cheaper to produce than proper cam/gear focusing or it was done simply done to introduce change.

Replacing mechanical stuff with electronic stuff usually involves saving money. But it can improve reliability and/or longevity too. Focus-by-wire doesn't bother me so long as it doesn't have an absurdly long or short focus throw.

Re. metering: with any mirrorless system I should be able to choose an "ETTR" option and then entirely forget about metering. Cameras should be smart enough by now to get it right first try. Can't figure out the difference between unnecessary (specular) & important highlight data? Create better evaluative algorithms. In fact I'm not sure there should need to be any metering options other than a dial assigned to exposure compensation. In all auto modes (Program, Av, Tv, "manual" with Auto-ISO, etc.) everything should be ETTR'd. Let the camera derive nice JPEGs and motion frames from optimal data. And when you need/want to take full control you can use full manual mode.

-Dave-
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dwswager

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2015, 09:08:23 PM »

Replacing mechanical stuff with electronic stuff usually involves saving money. But it can improve reliability and/or longevity too. Focus-by-wire doesn't bother me so long as it doesn't have an absurdly long or short focus throw.

And now that absolutely everything on a modern DSLR is set electronically, why can't we save the complete state of the camera for later recall?
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bokehcambodia

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2015, 12:44:02 AM »

 ??? d'oh to nearly all manufacturers;
They must be thinking the majority of buyers are either beginners or clueless enthusiasts... even pro DSLRs lack these features for over a decade;
Someday there will be a camera that get's it right  ::)

jjj

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2015, 08:57:37 AM »

Re. metering: with any mirrorless system I should be able to choose an "ETTR" option and then entirely forget about metering. Cameras should be smart enough by now to get it right first try. Can't figure out the difference between unnecessary (specular) & important highlight data? Create better evaluative algorithms. In fact I'm not sure there should need to be any metering options other than a dial assigned to exposure compensation. In all auto modes (Program, Av, Tv, "manual" with Auto-ISO, etc.) everything should be ETTR'd. Let the camera derive nice JPEGs and motion frames from optimal data. And when you need/want to take full control you can use full manual mode.
Not everyone is beholden to ETTR metering. It's just one method of exposing an image, not the best way, simply one that a few people prefer. Most people have never even heard of it. It's known by some on LuLa as basically this is where the concept originated, but eleswhere......
"Correct' exposure is whatever gets the results you require. Requirements vary.
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NancyP

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2015, 10:27:01 AM »

I just decided that the Rantatorial is a fine addition.

I will enter a related rant: There should be an option for showing the RAW histogram, not just the jpg histogram. This is a variant on the "Zebras for RAW" Rant.

I agree about the boneheadedness of not allowing AutoISO on manual setting.
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smthopr

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2015, 12:57:51 PM »

regarding the digital camera metering rant...

I'm thinking here that the issue might be in the way that RAW images are processed in DSLR cameras.

I use movie cameras for my day job.  When we record RAW or (sometimes) LOG images, the recorded data remains the same always, but the ISO setting is saved to meta data for RAW processing later. (in LOG mode, changing the ISO, and thus exposure, moves the image up and down the scale).

What that means in practice is that shooting a low ISO image essentially exposes to the right, and a high ISO exposes to the left, if you will.  But the live monitor image is adjusted to show the metered (intended effect) exposure.  It also means that highlight DR is reduced at low ISO and shadow DR is increased.  The opposite is true at high ISO settings.

If this were the approach taken in a DSLR still camera, metering can be left as it is, allowing for fully adjusted JPEG and live view (or review). Changing the ISO setting would be how one would ETTR, knowing that there will be less highlight protection the lower the ISO setting, but maximum image quality (providing you don't clip wanted highlights!)

If the camera had the feature of showing clipping in the viewfinder for each color, it would be easy to maximize quality by changing the ISO setting only.  No special ETTR metering required.  For example, the RED cameras have a "traffic light" in the view finder showing RGB.  When the "R" light goes on, you know you're clipping the red channel and so forth.

As it is now, from what I can see using my Canon 5D, is that analog gain is applied to the sensor data as the ISO is increased, before recording the RAW image.  Maybe there is some noise processing advantage to this, I don't know. This is what makes it necessary to think about exposing to the right.  But Arriflex and Red certainly don't do this :)
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rdonson

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 01:57:12 PM »

As long as there's a pile on for rants going let me add mine.

My Fuji X-T1 is a camera that I really enjoy and it works well for me.  I would, however, love to be able to store all the settings or even multiple versions of setting to a file on the SD card.  I just recently set up a second X-T1 and it was tedious to go through each setting and get it to my preferred state.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2015, 03:37:15 AM »

Not everyone is beholden to ETTR metering. It's just one method of exposing an image, not the best way, simply one that a few people prefer. Most people have never even heard of it. It's known by some on LuLa as basically this is where the concept originated, but eleswhere......
"Correct' exposure is whatever gets the results you require. Requirements vary.


I fully agree. ETTR metering technique was something that was more required say 5 or 10 years ago, when the exposure latitude of the sensors was more limited than it is today. Today, with the capabilities of modern sensors and metering algorithms, the chances of ruining a shot due to a poor decision by the exposure algorithm are much reduced. Even my lowly Canon 6D, that is reportedly a "crap DR camera", gets it right time after time. And when it blows the highlights, normally around 1 stop or so, it is because I was in a hurry, but I can salvage the shot later, easily.

Sure, ETTR would be a good option to have, but lets not blow it out of proportion...

Herindur

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2015, 12:33:19 PM »

Not everyone is beholden to ETTR metering. It's just one method of exposing an image, not the best way, simply one that a few people prefer. Most people have never even heard of it. It's known by some on LuLa as basically this is where the concept originated, but eleswhere......
"Correct' exposure is whatever gets the results you require. Requirements vary.
Not everyone using something is a poor argument for not including something these days, IMO. Modern cameras are technical marvels; I find it extremely hard to imagine any system camera in the market that does not deliver superb IQ, suitable for most purposes, bar those of technicians and artists with very specific demands. The selling point of anything are it's features. For cameras the major points like IQ, lenses, etc. seems mostly covered already by CaNikon, and the smaller producers are getting there. Crop/FF/DR/bla bla bla - there's really nothing that's "bad" anymore, just different levels of very good to fantastic. So, why should one choose one camera over the other?

If the major points are covered, the features that truly matter become the things a small yet significant amount of people need. ETTR is likely one of those things. Not barring people from using certain auto-functions in manual mode is another. And what about assigning functions to all buttons? Mostly, it's a matter of and firmware, maybe a slight upgrade of processing and wiring too. Adding such things won't cost a lot, but might inspire people to buy or upgrade to your new thing. So why should they not do this?
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jjj

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2015, 04:35:55 PM »

Not everyone using something is a poor argument for not including something these days, IMO. Modern cameras are technical marvels; I find it extremely hard to imagine any system camera in the market that does not deliver superb IQ, suitable for most purposes, bar those of technicians and artists with very specific demands. The selling point of anything are it's features. For cameras the major points like IQ, lenses, etc. seems mostly covered already by CaNikon, and the smaller producers are getting there. Crop/FF/DR/bla bla bla - there's really nothing that's "bad" anymore, just different levels of very good to fantastic. So, why should one choose one camera over the other?

If the major points are covered, the features that truly matter become the things a small yet significant amount of people need. ETTR is likely one of those things. Not barring people from using certain auto-functions in manual mode is another. And what about assigning functions to all buttons? Mostly, it's a matter of and firmware, maybe a slight upgrade of processing and wiring too. Adding such things won't cost a lot, but might inspire people to buy or upgrade to your new thing. So why should they not do this?
Use the term ETTR outside of LuLa and expect to get confused responses/blank looks. I doubt very much it comes anywhere close to being a significant number of people needing this feature. I have no problem with cameras having it or anything, I'm simply doubting the demand for it.
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digitaldog

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2015, 04:46:56 PM »

Not everyone is beholden to ETTR metering.
True, some are more relaxed about producing optimal exposures for whatever they are shooting. Heck, even in the film days, just push it in development a couple stops. No big deal right?
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digitaldog

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2015, 04:49:05 PM »

Today, with the capabilities of modern sensors and metering algorithms, the chances of ruining a shot due to a poor decision by the exposure algorithm are much reduced.
And the chances of improving the image quality by making the right decisions on optimal exposure?

There is of course 'good enough' for exposure or anything else technically related to image capture and output that affects the data and thus quality.
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AllMankind

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2015, 04:01:11 AM »

One of the worst things I have ever seen, other than focus by wire, is the removal of the aperture ring on the lens.  I suspect, that at least part of the reason for this, is to limit the usefullness of the lenses to the manufacturers bodies.

The other thing I dislike is the limits manufacturers place into their firmware, thereby limiting the usefullness of the camera and handicapping (or at least irritating) the photographer.
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rdonson

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2015, 12:42:00 PM »

One of the worst things I have ever seen, other than focus by wire, is the removal of the aperture ring on the lens.  I suspect, that at least part of the reason for this, is to limit the usefullness of the lenses to the manufacturers bodies.

The other thing I dislike is the limits manufacturers place into their firmware, thereby limiting the usefullness of the camera and handicapping (or at least irritating) the photographer.

Bold statements.  Perhaps you'd like to expand on your rants.

- how does the lack of an aperture ring limit the usefulness of the lenses on the manufacturers bodies?
- how do manufacturers limit you through their firmware and thereby irritate you?

You are aware that there are some manufacturers like Fuji that have aperture and focus rings on their lenses, right?
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NancyP

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Re: They Just Donít Get It
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2015, 07:03:27 PM »

I found the concept of ETTR in a digital photography textbook circa 2008. It was in the section explaining ADC conversion.
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