Buying first digital medium format camera

[alexluuphoto]

I have been looking for phase one or mamiya back and it seems pretty pricey for the +series backs with a body. 6-10k without a lens... While hasselblad h3d-ii with lens is about 5-6k. Which one is a better option you guys think?

[torger]

I have been looking for phase one or mamiya back and it seems pretty pricey for the +series backs with a body. 6-10k without a lens... While hasselblad h3d-ii with lens is about 5-6k. Which one is a better option you guys think?

I'd go fot the h3d-ii. I see here on a local Swedish second hand market "blocket" a Hassy H2 with a Phase One P40+ plus 80mm/2.8 and 150mm/3.2 for 39k SEK, which is $4.6k USD, not a bad system if you like Capture One but prefer Hassy bodies. Not long time ago you had to pay more for the back alone, and well you still often have to. But you can now and then find sales where people just want to get rid of their gear as quickly as possible, and this is one such case. There are so many interesting CMOS options out there now which I think is why I've seen an increase lately of such sales. The Hassy H second hand market is overfull here in Sweden though so even with such a great price it doesn't sell very quickly, it has been out for weeks. It's good for buyers, but if you buy one don't expect that it will be easy to sell. I don't know about the international market though, Hassy H may be higher valued there.

I'd look closely into the differences between H2, H3 and H4 before buying though so you know what you'll miss. I'm no expert in that, I only know that you need H4 to get the unique TrueFocus feature.

[Ken R]

I have been looking for phase one or mamiya back and it seems pretty pricey for the +series backs with a body. 6-10k without a lens... While hasselblad h3d-ii with lens is about 5-6k. Which one is a better option you guys think?

If you can get a PhaseOne IQ140 get one (or any IQ back!). The LCD screen is just amazing and makes a HUGE difference when working out and about with the back whether using a tech camera or an SLR like the Phase/Mamiya or the Hasselblad H body. Also the IQ chassis is a great design and operationally the IQ140 will be faster and nicer (GUI) than a P+ back. Sensor wise the P40+ is identical but it has the old case and a super dated lcd screen which is slow and pretty useless for critical image evaluation. For working in the studio and/or tethered then the P+ is a great value though.

The Hasselblads don't have a nice lcd screen either although it is not as bad as the one in the P+.

I like the handling of the Hasselblad H bodies (I own one) but keep in mind that the lenses are expensive, even used (although all are good). The Mamiya 645 lenses can be had for cheap used and there will be lots of options but of course only the newer (and more expensive) LS lenses have leaf shutters and the leaf shutter only works on the latest Phase/Mamiya bodies.

[torger]

I'm sure the IQ screen is great, but for us price-sensitive guys it's really really tough to motivate to pay several thousands of dollars extra for mainstream electronics features (eg a nice screen). The image quality of the older backs with the same sensor is essentially the same, so what you pay for is to get a screen almost as cool as the one you have on your $300 mobile phone.

If you shoot with autofocus through an SLR viewfinder, and on top of that work tethered (as you generally do in a studio setting), I can't see any strong value at all with a great screen on the back. Therefore I personally see little reason to go for the IQ series when you can get the same image quality from a P+ back (except for 80 megapixel backs and long exposure of IQ260)

(The dated screens are good enough for exposure check and see the composition, but you cannot see if the image is sharp or not.)

[Ken R]

I'm sure the IQ screen is great, but for us price-sensitive guys it's really really tough to motivate to pay several thousands of dollars extra for mainstream electronics features (eg a nice screen). The image quality of the older backs with the same sensor is essentially the same, so what you pay for is to get a screen almost as cool as the one you have on your $300 mobile phone.

If you shoot with autofocus through an SLR viewfinder, and on top of that work tethered (as you generally do in a studio setting), I can't see any strong value at all with a great screen on the back. Therefore I personally see little reason to go for the IQ series when you can get the same image quality from a P+ back (except for 80 megapixel backs and long exposure of IQ260)

(The dated screens are good enough for exposure check and see the composition, but you cannot see if the image is sharp or not.)

I would also look into the 645D. Yes, the sensor is not as good as the one in the p40+ but the camera body feels modern, has a nice screen, AF, controls etc. Basically no learning curve if coming from a DSLR. Great body for working untethered. The 645D is an amazing value nowadays and the lenses can be found cheap. Great camera if you do not need or care much about service and support (its a very reliable camera but if something goes wrong and you need to send it in expect to be without it for 8-10 weeks).

That said, for shooting wide open I MUCH prefer the Hasselblad H lenses. The AF of the Hasselblad H's is also quite good.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Ken,

If the OP buys a low budget system I would expect he is not going to have a value added warranty on that. I would also suggest that he needs to investigate service options and costs.

Torger has found out that having a Leaf without proper dealer support is not a pleasant experience and his experience with dealers was not vey positive.

Personally, I just jumped on decent offer on a P45+ and it is quite good (ok perfect), fortunately for me. I have bought some simple things from the main Swedish dealer and got very good service, but I am somewhat concerned about repairs. That said, the P45+ back is well made and serves me well.

Best regards
Erik

I would also look into the 645D. Yes, the sensor is not as good as the one in the p40+ but the camera body feels modern, has a nice screen, AF, controls etc. Basically no learning curve if coming from a DSLR. Great body for working untethered. The 645D is an amazing value nowadays and the lenses can be found cheap. Great camera if you do not need or care much about service and support (its a very reliable camera but if something goes wrong and you need to send it in expect to be without it for 8-10 weeks).

That said, for shooting wide open I MUCH prefer the Hasselblad H lenses. The AF of the Hasselblad H's is also quite good.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Hasselblad has a price list for repairs: http://www.hasselblad.com/support/repairs/cost-estimates-and-fixed-service-prices

Be aware that some backs may not be serviceable as parts are no longer available.

Best regards
Erik

[torger]

Hasselblad has a price list for repairs: http://www.hasselblad.com/support/repairs/cost-estimates-and-fixed-service-prices

The service costs look quite reasonable, a bit cheaper than Leaf for example. This can be worth considering when getting second hand system as you need to be "self-insured". The risks is pretty low I think, if a shutter breaks down it costs €395+VAT euro to replace, and considering second hand H lens prices is often less than half of new price (ie you save €1000+ per lens) is a small risk to absorb.

Due to this I think it's generally smarter to get a well-used system, prices of those are considerably lower and a system that's ran say 50k shots often hold up for a lot more before the first repair (the bad units break down early). I don't really trust the quality of MFD gear based on own experience and what I've read on forums and heard from others, so getting a "barely used backup system" is to me more scary than getting a system that has been used and known to work over a long period of time.

[Ken R]

Hi I was wondering if I can get some insight. I currently have a Sony A7 with a 55mm 1.8 and several legacy lenses. I mainly shoot portraiture/headshot work and don't do much landscape. I am looking into buying a digital medium format camera for my studio and on location shoots. Turning my a7 for more of a travel everyday street photography use or backup. My price range is 3-10k right now. I have been looking into used MF cameras and digital backs for the past couple of days. I like the new Pentax 645z and see it on ebay for 7-8k. But also when I look at other cameras on there I see the old Pentax 645D for 3.2-4k which is extremely cheap. Hasselblad 3d ii bodies for 3-4.5k.

My question is, is it still worth it to buy these older digital Medium format cameras? I will only be shooting these cameras, inside and outside with base iso of 100 so I really don't care about iso performance. Also I prefer Manual focus because it slows me down and helps me compose my shots better. Or do you guys think I should just shell out for a Pentax 645z because its newer. I just care about IQ and having a solid camera that will last me while for strictly studio work.

Where are you from BTW?

[alexluuphoto]

La California

[Ken R]

La California

Nice! There are at least two very good dealers in the US, Digital Transitions and Capture Integration. I use DT in New York and they were very helpful. They both have a LOT of experience with a wide range of medium format digital setups and can point you in the right direction.

In contrast, worldwide Medium Format Dealer quality and experiences vary wildly from good to nightmarish. You can tell by most of the comments of the Euro guys in this forum regarding medium format digital. Some love to hate PhaseOne. I guess a few have been burned by some of the international dealers.

In the USA it is way different. Those two companies are legit and have VERY good relations with PhaseOne/Leaf, Arca, Cambo, Rodenstock and Schneider among others.

Your budget, while on the low side for MFD it is enough for a good setup. Even with a back like the very affordable P25+ and say a Mamiya / Phase DF or Hassy H you get the look of medium format due to the large sensor and optics and of course the awesome tethering performance of the Phase system for very little money.

A few years ago I assisted Greg Kadel when he came to Puerto Rico to shoot the EXPRESS (clothing company) campaign. He used a H body with a p65+ back tethered for a few days. The setup along with the Capture One software was flawless. He used mixed lighting outdoors. Mixed tungsten fresnels with natural daylight and some profoto flash. Stunning images. Yes, new gear is out but it does not mean the old gear suddenly degrades its quality! Still works as good as ever!   

[Joe Towner]

Capture Integration is in LA, and Bear Images is in San Francisco/Palo Alto.  Let them know what you're looking for and what budget you need to stay in, they'll be happy to put options in front of you.

Oh, and it seems CI came to Seattle last week and I didn't even realize it...  If you're not normally by a dealer, check out the locations their Serious Technical Training is headed to.

https://captureintegration.com/2015-serious-technical-training/

[gazwas]

In contrast, worldwide Medium Format Dealer quality and experiences vary wildly from good to nightmarish. You can tell by most of the comments of the Euro guys in this forum regarding medium format digital. Some love to hate PhaseOne. I guess a few have been burned by some of the international dealers.

I don't think the Euro dealers are the bad guys but the way in which Phase favours the larger and more lucrative US market is what stinks. US dealers seem to get the beat deals because of the volume they order but this sales model just makes dealers in the rest of the world seem like a rip off but I imagine their prices and profit margins are very much tied to Phase pricing.

[Doug Peterson]

Oh, and it seems CI came to Seattle last week and I didn't even realize it...

Sorry you missed CI, but I'll be in Seattle March 23-24 if you'd like to get a drink together! I'm glad to answer any technical or C1 questions you have.

As to Los Angeles, we (DT) also have a many clients in LA and would be glad to help as well.