Topic: Buying first digital medium format camera (Read 8662 times)

alexluuphoto · « **on:** February 15, 2015, 11:46:56 pm »

Hi I was wondering if I can get some insight. I currently have a Sony A7 with a 55mm 1.8 and several legacy lenses. I mainly shoot portraiture/headshot work and don't do much landscape. I am looking into buying a digital medium format camera for my studio and on location shoots. Turning my a7 for more of a travel everyday street photography use or backup. My price range is 3-10k right now. I have been looking into used MF cameras and digital backs for the past couple of days. I like the new Pentax 645z and see it on ebay for 7-8k. But also when I look at other cameras on there I see the old Pentax 645D for 3.2-4k which is extremely cheap. Hasselblad 3d ii bodies for 3-4.5k.

My question is, is it still worth it to buy these older digital Medium format cameras? I will only be shooting these cameras, inside and outside with base iso of 100 so I really don't care about iso performance. Also I prefer Manual focus because it slows me down and helps me compose my shots better. Or do you guys think I should just shell out for a Pentax 645z because its newer. I just care about IQ and having a solid camera that will last me while for strictly studio work.

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2015, 01:07:52 am »

Hi,

Both Pentaxes are probably great cameras. Exact manual focus is not easy, Pentax 645Z has live view, that should make life easier.

I would say that your price range is a bit shallow for MFD.

Personally, I went with the Hasselblad 555/ELD with a P45+. Owners of other P45+ backs told me that mine is a good one. I had that system for 1.5 years and I enjoy shooting with it. But, I am not sure about the image quality. The P45+ has 39 MP while my Sony Alpha 99 is at 24 MP, same sensor as your A7. The Pentax 645D has a sensor that is similar to the P45+, both made by Kodak.

This page contains a lot of image comparisons between the A7 and the Hasselblad P45+. I always carry both systems in parallell. The images here were not formal tests but shooting with both systems parallell. Raw images are included. The DNG images have the original raw imbedded, it can be extracted using Adobe DNG Converter.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up?start=6

This page contains some images from the P45+ (also with raws):

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up?start=5

The page below contains some sample images from the Hasselblad lenses I own:

Distagon 40/4 FLE
Distagon 50/4 FLE
Planar 80/2.8
Planar 100/3.5
Macro Planar 120/4
Sonnar 180/4

There is an aperture series for all lenses (except the Sonnar 180/4 and the Planar 100/3.5), all shot with f/4, f/8 and f/16, here:
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/CastleShoot/

Real worlds sample shots are here:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/

I am not shooting portraits normally, but we had a nice shoot with our camera club with two nice kids acting as models, some pictures from that shoot are here:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/Nynas_NFK_2014_09_13/

I can add that I am using the Hasselblad more and more. Regarding image quality I don't see any other advantage except for the 39 MP vs. 24 MP. On the other hand I like the simplicity of the Hasselblad.

Regarding the Pentax 645D and the Pentax 645Z: The newer camera has been improved in many aspects, it is a more modern camera. Regarding the sensors the Pentax 645D has a Kodak sensor while the 645Z has a Sony sensor.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: alexluuphoto on February 15, 2015, 11:46:56 pm

Hi I was wondering if I can get some insight. I currently have a Sony A7 with a 55mm 1.8 and several legacy lenses. I mainly shoot portraiture/headshot work and don't do much landscape. I am looking into buying a digital medium format camera for my studio and on location shoots. Turning my a7 for more of a travel everyday street photography use or backup. My price range is 3-10k right now. I have been looking into used MF cameras and digital backs for the past couple of days. I like the new Pentax 645z and see it on ebay for 7-8k. But also when I look at other cameras on there I see the old Pentax 645D for 3.2-4k which is extremely cheap. Hasselblad 3d ii bodies for 3-4.5k.

My question is, is it still worth it to buy these older digital Medium format cameras? I will only be shooting these cameras, inside and outside with base iso of 100 so I really don't care about iso performance. Also I prefer Manual focus because it slows me down and helps me compose my shots better. Or do you guys think I should just shell out for a Pentax 645z because its newer. I just care about IQ and having a solid camera that will last me while for strictly studio work.

BernardLanguillier · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2015, 02:51:58 am »

What problem are you trying to solve by going MF?

Cheers,
Bernard

alexluuphoto · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2015, 03:18:07 am »

Thank you so much Erik for the reply! I really liked looking through all those pictures =) I noticed when looking at your comparisons that the p45+ was just a little bit sharper and the colors are a little bit better. The difference was not a lot though.

Quote from: BernardLanguillier on February 16, 2015, 02:51:58 am

What problem are you trying to solve by going MF?

Cheers,
Bernard

To be honest I am not trying to solve any problems buying a medium format. I am a huge camera enthusiast and love photography. I would like to be able to try it out and also have the option of buying Leaf Shutter lenses.

torger · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2015, 12:15:43 pm »

For studio work with flash you'll get great image quality out of any MF system from 2004 and onward. I'd worry a bit about moire of the 22 megapixel backs though, but 33 and up you're reasonably okay.

With your particular interest I'd look into second hand Hasselblad H3D systems, they can be had dirt cheap. Lenses are a bit expensive though... but also easy to find second hand. I recently got a HC80 for ~$1000 (new price $2500). In fact, Hassy H is the easiest gear right now to trade second hand at least here in Sweden, but then again Hassy is based in Sweden.

You could get a classic Hassy V of course as manual focus is okay for you. I've got the impression though that it's easier to get great deals on Hassy H than it is on V, the V is highly valued in the enthusiast group which trade much second hand, so there's collector value. I just saw a CFV-39 on ebay now at $7099 and the bidding has not yet ended, and at the same time there's a H3DII-39 for $5500 "buy now", but you can probably get it for a bit less if you bid. Second hand value of Hassy H systems are rather poor, it's a buyers market so you can get a lot of medium format for the money.

If you want a taste of the "MFD studio experience" I'd look for a second hand Hassy rather than Pentax at this point, as Hassy has the long-term experience of color reproduction that studio professionals like, and the tethered workflow, and the camera works more classic MF only one focus point, a little bit larger sensor, while the Pentax is more of a scaled up DSLR (which is a good thing, but it's less "different").

If you intend to go serious with MFD in the longer term ie start buying new stuff, I would personally consider investing in the Pentax 645z though as it feels more long-term and the price difference up to new Hassy/P1 is just too large and I don't think the Hassy/Phase One business model is for the future other than in luxury and other narrow segments.

JV · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2015, 12:30:33 pm »

If you are just now stepping into MF I would totally go for the Pentax 645Z.

If you are in the US you could probably also find a used H4D/H5D body for around $8-9K or a used S2 body for around $7-8.5K but the lenses will be more expensive.

Another forum member just reviewed the 645Z. In case you haven't seen it yet:
http://chrisgilesphotography.com/blog/pentax-645z-review-pt1-the-journey/

epines · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2015, 01:12:21 pm »

I personally agree with Torger. I have the Hassy H3DII-39, and it's a terrific camera. The files are gorgeous and rich and deep, with great color. You can beat them up in post / retouching much more than 35mm files. You can sync up to 1/800. Autofocus is accurate. The H4 and H5 bodies have TrueFocus, a long-needed innovation for cameras in general. I find it quite ergonomic and well balanced to hold. The menu and custom options are well-thought-out. The view through the viewfinder is giant, just a pleasure compared to 35mm. And the lenses are very, very good. For some reason a lot of people like to criticize the H system on this forum, but there are a ton of pros using them, myself included.

I had the V system before, and while the bodies and lenses are very good, it was a bit too convoluted in its actual functionality. It's harder to nail focus than you think with manual focus and a cropped view. I could only get the lenses to sync properly up to 1/250. And with all the cables and sync ports, if anything fails at any point, you miss the shot (cable from lens to back, cable from back to Pocket Wizard; 4 connections in total; 8 things to possibly fail (4 cable ends, 4 cable-insertion points)).

As for this being an older camera at this point, remember, not that long ago it was one of the top cameras in the world. And its quality hasn't degraded; there are just newer options out there. If you're fine shooting at 50 or 100 ISO, it's a great solution. If you need to have the absolute latest and greatest, well, that might not be doable in your budget. That's my two cents. Hope that helps.

ethan

alexluuphoto · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2015, 01:15:03 pm »

Quote from: JV on February 16, 2015, 12:30:33 pm

If you are just now stepping into MF I would totally go for the Pentax 645Z.

If you are in the US you could probably also find a used H4D/H5D body for around $8-9K or a used S2 body for around $7-8.5K but the lenses will be more expensive.

Another forum member just reviewed the 645Z. In case you haven't seen it yet:
http://chrisgilesphotography.com/blog/pentax-645z-review-pt1-the-journey/

Damn that is probably the best review of the pentax 645z. I would love to grab the pentax now lol! But do you guys have any experiences with the tether action with the new pentax? I heard C1 doesn't support it. I like C1 and also i like the capture pilot that it brings.

JV · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2015, 01:47:46 pm »

Quote from: alexluuphoto on February 16, 2015, 01:15:03 pm

Damn that is probably the best review of the pentax 645z. I would love to grab the pentax now lol! But do you guys have any experiences with the tether action with the new pentax? I heard C1 doesn't support it. I like C1 and also i like the capture pilot that it brings.

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=97401.0

C1 does not support any medium format competitor (Hasselblad, Leica, Pentax).

Shortsightedness from the part of Phase One IMO although other people on this forum will beg to differ...

Gel · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2015, 02:11:55 pm »

If you can't stretch to a 645Z you can go for a 645D, those are a bargain now. Think $3000.

Alternatively if there's a body I'd hanker after it would be a Mamiya / Phase DF with a Leaf 22mp back.

More bang for buck with the 645D though as it hits ISO1600.

torger · « **Reply #10 on:** February 16, 2015, 02:36:47 pm »

When it comes to Hassy vs Phase One / Mamiya, it seems like most think that Hassy has the better camera body, and Phase One has the better back and software. Hasselblad Phocus does look like a relic compared to Capture One. It does it's basic raw conversion very well though, and a common workflow seems to be to use Lightroom for DAM, Phocus for serious raw conversion and Photoshop for post-processing.

I have a H4D-50 myself, but I really only use it as a toy so far as I'm a landscape photographer. The real purpose I got it was for using the back on my Linhof (it has excellent tech cam compatibility), and I got my H4D-50 for less than a CFV-50 would typically cost. Anyway I got a lens for it just for fun, and noted as one would expect that it's next to useless in natural light, but with strobes it really shines (it's just sooo easy to make sharp pictures at 1/800

), I like the ergonomics, fun to work with nice large viewfinder.

Joe Towner · « **Reply #11 on:** February 16, 2015, 06:07:22 pm »

I wrote up a big long reply, but decided against it.

If you like CaptureOne and want a tethered workflow, stick with a Phase/Leaf system. They've got leaf lenses, so it'll work as you're expecting. You can do a Phase back on a H1 or H2 body and use Hasselblad lenses, but the integration isn't to the same level. The 645Z does some great things, with live view and focus peaking on the articulating screen being big in your use case.

Find a dealer or travel to see one, and get the camera in hand. Lots of used backs out there - and as long as you ask the 'who'll fix ....' question the back should just keep working.

DanielStone · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2015, 01:52:11 am »

A used/refurbished H2 body(or if I were you, buy a pair of them) and a Phase One P40+, to me, seems like a nice combo for headshots and portait work. "Smaller" sized chip, yes, but still a great sensor, and you still get to tether to C1. Not the newest tech on the block, but very stable, and proven platform(the + series backs that is). There is also the P30+, which is also a great sensor. They're also cheap as chips these days it seems. A friend just picked one(P30+) up with an H2 kit(80mm lens, prism, etc.) for $4000. It had ~65k actuations, so not "new", but still has tons of life left. He got 4 back batteries and 2 grips and 2 chargers for each in the deal. Talk about a steal, IMO...

H-series lenses(all leaf shutter) are available at pretty much every MF rental house/company, and are great lenses for the ~40mp sensor in the P40+, and equally good on the P30+.

IF you want "new" tech, then I'd say go for the 645Z. IMO, best bang for the buck going right now(if you can give up LS lenses across the entire range). Yes, you also don't get C1 file support, but that 50mp sensor kicks out some tremendous files, and at high-iso too!

-Dan

torger · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2015, 02:03:52 am »

I've noted that P65+ is coming down in price too, here in Sweden I can buy a second hand H-mount from a dealer for $8300 (+taxes if not a company), that's pretty cool for full-frame 645, it was not long time ago you had to shell out that for a P45+. $8.3k will still be tight with a $10k budget though of course...

I think we're slowly seeing the effect of CMOS breakthrough in MFD, but CCDs still make excellent images when used in proper conditions though so I think it's a good time to buy second hand. Hassy body plus Phase One back sounds like an interesting combo if you like C1, but I think if you look for best value you'll likely find it in a H3DII-39 or H3DII-50. When buying second hand it's a good idea to not lock down exactly what you want, so you can get the best deal for the day. That CFV-39 I mentioned in an earlier post got sold for $7299 on ebay, showing the strong position of the V system in the second hand market.

Of course it's best to rent and test, but on the other hand if you have the time to mess around a bit buying second hand and selling again if you don't like it can be cheaper than renting, but of course more risky. When you sell you need to keep calm and wait for the right buyer to come.

Kolor-Pikker · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:53:06 am »

Quote from: alexluuphoto on February 16, 2015, 03:18:07 am

To be honest I am not trying to solve any problems buying a medium format. I am a huge camera enthusiast and love photography. I would like to be able to try it out and also have the option of buying Leaf Shutter lenses.

Do be aware that the Pentax system only has two legacy lenses with leaf shutters that need to be manually charged after every shot, so don't count on having sync speeds faster than 1/125th most of the time.

Dshelly · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2015, 08:27:14 pm »

It would be a nice option if Profoto upgraded the B1's to offer HSS with the Pentaz 645z.

alexluuphoto · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2015, 08:40:09 pm »

Haha such a hard option. Go with new Pentax get new sensor with great ISO and a little more iq for a really good price. Downside is tethering, sync and lenses aren't the best. Or go used dmf and your about to spend at least 5-10k for a whole kit, but you don't get the new cmos sensor. Plus side is hasselblad, phase one and mamiya has good solid studio tethering.

I shoot mainly studio fashion and portraiture work so I think I am leaning towards the hasse and phase one direction, but I really love all the feature of the Pentax. I think I just feel like I would get a lot out of more with my second option and one reliable leaf shutter lens I save buying used equipment.

Ken R · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2015, 09:09:07 pm »

Honestly PhaseOne has the best hardware and software integration. This is specially beneficial when working tethered. It is a very reliable system and works great for colab (supervised) work not just solo operation.

Next is Hasselblad. Very good system. Only weakness is the software but works well.

I used the Leica S tethered and works well with lightroom but both the Hassy and specially the PhaseOne solution is more robust and has more features (Capture Pilot rules for supervised shoots).

Regarding the bodies the Leica S is superb. Feels like a VERY high quality DSLR like none other built. Very slick, solid feeling and just oozes quality.

The 645Z/645D feels also like a typical DSLR. So you can use it just like one. No real learning curve.

The Hassy and specially the PhaseOne system are much more modular so you can mix and match parts from a pretty good selection. Definitely recommend a dealer for these two (I use Digital Transitions in NY) to point you in the right direction and avoid the possible pitfalls of combining separate items to make a system and solve any issues that might arise.

NickT · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2015, 09:39:44 pm »

Quote from: Ken R on February 17, 2015, 09:09:07 pm

Next is Hasselblad. Very good system. Only weakness is the software but works well.

Ken what do you find weak about the software? It's absolutely not as full-featured at C1 but works very well in my experience (I shoot to Phocus almost every day).

torger · « **Reply #19 on:** February 18, 2015, 02:07:44 am »

Phocus lacks the ability to do advanced post-processing like high quality tonemapping and extensive local edits, that's the main limitation. Its LCC correction leaves more to be desired for tech cam users too, but that's not applicable in this case.

The raw conversion itself is excellent though, I don't think you can say that C1 is better at that. I've looked into Phocus color model and it's the most advanced I've seen in any raw converter, not that it means much when you shoot under a constant light condition like Flash, but it's obvious that they've really taken the challenge with color seriously.

For a studio and portrait photographer I don't think Phocus will feel that limiting, while for a landscape photographer it may leave some features to be desired, which you can get from third party software of course.

The question of using a dealer or not using a dealer, it depends on price I guess and the will to absorb risk and search for information yourself on forums like this. A $10k budget usually don't take you far at a dealer, at least the prices I've seen, while you can get a competent system in the private market for that budget these days. You can step on a mine though as I did with my Aptus a couple of years ago, cost me $4k extra or so in repairs, but still in the end the total cost was lower than if I'd got it through a dealer. The largest disadvantage of not having a (great) dealer is lack of support, if you're a pro it's problematic when it takes several months to fix a problem like it was in my case. A great dealer would probably not let that happen.

Author Topic: Buying first digital medium format camera (Read 8662 times)