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Author Topic: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr  (Read 36798 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2015, 07:48:56 am »

Hi Christoph,

I have found that I very seldom use 135 mm for the kind of pictures I have on mind. Would there be a Zeiss 85/2 APO, I would have it in my bag. I am quite interested in the Sigma 85/1.4 Art, but I don't think it has been announced yet.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik,
I suggest to wait for a Sigma 85f1.4 Art ... or go for the sharp and extraordinary well corrected ZE 135f2 Apo-Sonnar (which also has a long focus tube up to 1:4).
:-)
Christoph
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chrismuc

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2015, 09:13:32 am »

Hi Erik,

I also never was interested much in the 135mm focal length for 24x36mm sensor size, 85 or 100 fit more my style. Also I would prefer a 85f2 Apo to a 85f1.4 non-Apo ... but, I tested the 135f2 Apo-Sonnar at a dealer and that changed my mind. The lens is technically so excellent at any aperture and renders wonderfully so I became a 135mm shooter thanks to that lens:-)

And btw. on the FPS the lens becomes a 100mm equivalent focal length lens due to it's large image circle.

Christoph
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2015, 09:44:45 am »

As I pointed out in my edit above I think a huuuuge disadvantage of the Otus is that it's manual focus. To me it's a show stopper. Sure you can focus on live view and shoot great landscapes but then I would use f/8-f/11 on a full-frame DSLR, and I'm sure lenses like the Sigma Art is up for the task then?

When it comes to shooting wide open portraiture I don't like manual focus. There's the focus indicator in the viewfinder so it's not as difficult as on a legacy 100% manual systems, but I'm not really fast or precise enough getting there. I guess it can come with training though, can be a fun challenge to become good at, similar to that I've enjoyed to become a master at ground glass composition and focusing with my Linhof, there I use a 20x loupe and several seconds to get to the "focus point" though.

I would not suggest a Zeiss Otus to someone that wants to see how capable a DSLR system is especially a Canon system, taking away the autofocus from a recent higher end Canon is taking away a lot of it's really strong points. The light sensitivity of the autofocus system is just incredible.

Well that stinks.  But I think the real problem is not that the Otus is manual, but that all camera manufactures (including the MF guys) did away with real focusing screens.   >:(

Why?  I would love to know.  When I bought my first digital camera, I was so disappointed that there was no split prism and ultra sensitive ring (around that prism) on the focusing screen. 
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2015, 02:04:12 pm »

Well,

Modern DSLRs and some MFD backs have live view focusing. Pretty accurate at 11X magnification.

Best regards
Erik

Well that stinks.  But I think the real problem is not that the Otus is manual, but that all camera manufactures (including the MF guys) did away with real focusing screens.   >:(

Why?  I would love to know.  When I bought my first digital camera, I was so disappointed that there was no split prism and ultra sensitive ring (around that prism) on the focusing screen. 
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2015, 02:09:38 pm »

Thanks,

I have a very positive impression of the 135/2.0 APO. Just not my focal length. Once I have a camera to put it on I will consider it.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik,

I also never was interested much in the 135mm focal length for 24x36mm sensor size, 85 or 100 fit more my style. Also I would prefer a 85f2 Apo to a 85f1.4 non-Apo ... but, I tested the 135f2 Apo-Sonnar at a dealer and that changed my mind. The lens is technically so excellent at any aperture and renders wonderfully so I became a 135mm shooter thanks to that lens:-)

And btw. on the FPS the lens becomes a 100mm equivalent focal length lens due to it's large image circle.

Christoph
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 02:31:36 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

peterv

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2015, 04:36:27 pm »

... I found out that the Sony 85/1.4 ZA is quite OK, and I may buy that lens ...

Erik,

FYI, I've worked with the Sony 85/1.4 ZA for two years on the a900 and the lens is very sharp but it unfortunately has quite a lot of colour fringing (axial chromatic aberration) on OOF areas, so be aware of that before you buy it for wide open use.

Peter
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2015, 04:43:58 pm »

Hi Peter,

Thanks a lot. I have seen it has axial chroma on the Photozone site, so it is not unexpected. Guess that it moves off the short list…

Best regards
Erik



Erik,

FYI, I've worked with the Sony 85/1.4 ZA for two years on the a900 and the lens is very sharp but it unfortunately has quite a lot of colour fringing (axial chromatic aberration) on OOF areas, so be aware of that before you buy it for wide open use.

Peter
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2015, 12:30:35 am »

As I pointed out in my edit above I think a huuuuge disadvantage of the Otus is that it's manual focus. To me it's a show stopper. Sure you can focus on live view and shoot great landscapes but then I would use f/8-f/11 on a full-frame DSLR, and I'm sure lenses like the Sigma Art is up for the task then?

When it comes to shooting wide open portraiture I don't like manual focus.

I have shot hundreds of portrait pictures of my 3 years old daughter with the D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4 and Nikon 85mm f1.4 AF-S and the success ratio for tack sharp pictures on the part of eye where it matters is in fact a bit higher with the Otus manual focused. It should be even easier with the Otus 85mm f1.4 considering the higher magnification.

I have used my share of MF lenses as well, and I am yet to find one that has the same level of quality as the Otus on 35mm, but I am not trying to convince anyone. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 02:03:26 am by BernardLanguillier »
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voidshatter

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2015, 01:28:38 am »

I have shot hundreds of portrait pictures of my 3 years old daughter with the D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4 and Nikon 85mm f1.4 AF-S and the success ratio for tack sharp pictures on the part of eye when it matters is in fact a bit higher with MF. It should be even easier with the Otus 85mm f1.4 considering the higher magnification.

I have used my share of MF lenses as well, and I am yet to find one that has the same level of quality as the Otus on 35mm, but I am not trying to convince anyone. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

MTF-wise, the Rodenstock Digaron HR lenses outperform the Zeiss Otus, but that's just theory. Do you have raw samples for a comparison?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2015, 02:02:39 am »

MTF-wise, the Rodenstock Digaron HR lenses outperform the Zeiss Otus, but that's just theory. Do you have raw samples for a comparison?

I can relate to that, but that's a technical camera lens. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to SLR lenses since those represent most of the portrait usage.

And no, I don't have raw samples for a comparison.

Cheers,
Bernard

torger

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2015, 02:43:41 am »

I have shot hundreds of portrait pictures of my 3 years old daughter with the D810 + Otus 55mm f1.4 and Nikon 85mm f1.4 AF-S and the success ratio for tack sharp pictures on the part of eye where it matters is in fact a bit higher with the Otus manual focused.

It could be because you're talented though, people differ on how good they are at nailing manual focus, just as how still they can hold a camera. I could never be a watchworker, and likewise I very very much appreciate lens stabilization it really makes a difference for my hand-held photography, even for faster shutter speeds. I've tried manual focus on various MFD systems and DSLRs, and no it's not for me. With DSLRs you have the "cheat" with focus indicator though which makes a big difference of course, but I'm just fast enough and I don't think the extra Otus sharpness is makes it worth trying to learn when there are other good lenses that have autofocus.

It's personal though, but I would not raise the Otus lens to a general recommendation, I'd rather say that a manual lens for wide aperture photography on a DSLR is "a speciality lens".
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torger

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2015, 02:57:35 am »

Well that stinks.  But I think the real problem is not that the Otus is manual, but that all camera manufactures (including the MF guys) did away with real focusing screens.   >:(

Why?  I would love to know.  When I bought my first digital camera, I was so disappointed that there was no split prism and ultra sensitive ring (around that prism) on the focusing screen.  

With a DSLR you get a focus indicator in the viewfinder, which takes away much of the need of a split prism. The issue I personally have with manual focusing is not finding focus, it's about speed, especially with moving subjects.

My favourite portrait lens for my shooting style the rare occassions I make photographs of people, which generally is at parties and such, is actually the 70-200/2.8 II IS, the sharpest 70-200 zoom there is, great lens stabilization and perfect focal length span and very speedy autofocus. I also think ~f/4 makes nicer portraits than f/1.4, which means sharp corners at f/1.4 is meaningless to me. But then again I'm very much an amateur in this context and then equipment that allows me to get the shot is more important than maximizing image quality and losing shots. Now when I have a H4D-50 with a 80/2.8 lens I shall try to use just for fun sometime though.

Obviously being at an amateur level in this style of photography affects what I think about gear, ease of use is important to me. In landscape I have obviously not opted for ease of use using symmetric wides focusing manually on ground glass...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 03:15:31 am by torger »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2015, 03:16:52 am »

It's personal though, but I would not raise the Otus lens to a general recommendation, I'd rather say that a manual lens for wide aperture photography on a DSLR is "a speciality lens".

I can for sure understand this view, because that's exactly how I used to feel until I started to work with the Otus. :)

I had bought it purely for landscape work, and it's great for that obviously, but it has become my most used lens across the board.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2015, 03:17:56 am »

Well that stinks.  But I think the real problem is not that the Otus is manual, but that all camera manufactures (including the MF guys) did away with real focusing screens.   >:(

Why?  I would love to know.  When I bought my first digital camera, I was so disappointed that there was no split prism and ultra sensitive ring (around that prism) on the focusing screen.

Hi Joe,

For lenses with an aperture that is wider then f/2.8, one needs to use a different focus screen. The regular focus screens do not show any difference in DOF for apertures wider than f/2.8, it's only when you stop down to something narrower that the DOF preview will actually show a change. Split prisms and micro-prisms are also made for specific apertures, otherwise they e.g. go black. The fact that wider apertures do not effectively show a narrower DOF, makes manual focusing harder to get it spot on.

My EOS 1Ds Mark III, like the other Series 1 models, has interchangeable focus screens. I use a special focus screen for wider apertures (the sort of fresnel like structure allows even brightness across the screen), and it really makes a difference, both in focusing manual focus accuracy and also in judging the actual DOF effect in DOF preview mode. The only drawback is a slightly to significantly darker viewfinder image when narrower aperture lenses (f/3.5, f/4, f/5.6, or when combined with a focal length extender) are used. However, despite the darker viewfinder, manual focusing is still more accurate (if there is enough scene light to judge).

I doubt if the 5DS / 5DS R will have interchangeable focus screens, but there are modifications for the current EOS 5 models available on the internet from folks who cut down the screens from the 1 series to make them fit, with DIY instructions and a screwdriver + shims to retro fit it in an EOS 5 series model.

Besides that, it also helps to get the AF Micro Adjustment spot on for the wide aperture lenses, because that will allow usable focus confirmation lights/beeps. Combined with the extremely shallow DOF, that also works well, because shooting wide will not risk focus shift which some lenses show when closing down the aperture.

Cheers,
Bart
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chrismuc

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2015, 04:33:07 am »

Hi Voidshatter,
I don't think that Rodenstock HR lenses would outperform Zeiss Otus lenses.
Enclosed the MFT of the Otus 85 at f4 and f5.6 reaching (measured!) contrast values of 80-90% at 40 l/mm resolution.
Regards, Christoph
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voidshatter

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2015, 06:53:37 am »

Hi Voidshatter,
I don't think that Rodenstock HR lenses would outperform Zeiss Otus lenses.
Enclosed the MFT of the Otus 85 at f4 and f5.6 reaching (measured!) contrast values of 80-90% at 40 l/mm resolution.
Regards, Christoph

diglloyd hasn't measured the Rodenstock HR lenses so it's hard to tell. From the official documents I don't see the Otus having an advantage:

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torger

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2015, 07:53:34 am »

Otus and Rodenstock Digarons are quite difficult to compare fairly. The Rodies are made for larger sensors, 54x41mm (still with margin for movements), and Otus is for 36x24. That is the Otus must resolve more lpmm to get the corresponding image quality on the smaller sensor.

Otus is a lens made for large aperture photography, and Rodenstock Digarons are made for small aperture photography, say f/8-f/11 (corresponding to f/5.6 - f/8 on the Otus). I would not be that suprised if the Otus 55 on a 5DS R outperforms my Schneider Digitar 72mm with H4D-50 in terms of sharpness (it needs to be very good to do so though), but it's still meaningless as 1) the digitar is already more than sharp enough and 2) the Otus has no lens movements so it's not a replacement for tech cam photography, 3) the Digitar lens costs less than half of the Otus and weighs about 1/4th....

It makes much more sense to compare with MF SLR lenses which have the same use cases, you must still compensate for sensor size difference of course.

I think such a comparison would be very interesting and with a 5DS R vs say P65+/IQ160/IQ260 (full-frame is best to be fair to MF systems designed for that) it will be quite easy to make. I don't think we'll see any MFD dealer make one though, so an independent review site or photographer would have to do it.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 08:04:01 am by torger »
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voidshatter

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2015, 08:06:46 am »

If the official MTF charts are to be trusted, then the Rodenstock Digaron can already destroy the Otus regardless of sensor size (i.e. even if you use a 5DSR on a Rodenstock Digaron you still get sharper images in the corner of the 5DSR sensor).
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Ken R

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2015, 08:12:47 am »

Otus and Rodenstock Digarons are quite difficult to compare fairly. The Rodies are made for larger sensors, 54x41mm (still with margin for movements), and Otus is for 36x24. That is the Otus must resolve more lpmm to get the corresponding image quality on the smaller sensor.

Otus is a lens made for large aperture photography, and Rodenstock Digarons are made for small aperture photography, say f/8-f/11 (corresponding to f/5.6 - f/8 on the Otus). I would not be that suprised if the Otus 55 on a 5DS R outperforms my Schneider Digitar 72mm with H4D-50 in terms of sharpness (it needs to be very good to do so though), but it's still meaningless as 1) the digitar is already more than sharp enough and 2) the Otus has no lens movements so it's not a replacement for tech cam photography.

It makes much more sense to compare with MF SLR lenses which have the same use cases, you must still compensate for sensor size difference of course.

I think such a comparison would be very interesting and with a 5DS R vs say P65+/IQ160/IQ260 (full-frame is best to be fair to MF systems designed for that) it will be quite easy to make. I don't think we'll see any MFD dealer make one though, so an independent review site or photographer would have to do it.

Having made quite a few images with my IQ160 and Roddie 40mm HR and also some with a D800E and Zeiss 15mm, 14-24mm and 24mm PC-E and seen them side by side the Roddie and IQ160 image absolutely WHIPPED the D800E images. I really get the feel that the Roddie (at f5.6-f8) can handle a much higher res sensor. It is really a stunning lens. I mean, it shouldn't be a surprise given the fact that #1 its not cheap and #2 it does not have any focusing mechanism whatsoever. At least on the wide angle end of things (which is what I have been able to compare side by side) the Rodenstock glass can't be touched by any SLR lens.

The 5DS/R won't change that fact.

At longer focal lengths the differences are less (judging from what I have seen working with many different files). Where is the crossover? Id say around 70mm. Generally 55-85mm SLR lenses are really quite good below that they start to have issues. Why is that I don't know and don't care since im not in the business of designing lenses.

If I get my hands on a 5DS/R ill gladly post comparisons.    
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torger

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Re: Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R samples at flickr
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2015, 08:25:29 am »

At longer focal lengths the differences are less (judging from what I have seen working with many different files). Where is the crossover? Id say around 70mm. Generally 55-85mm SLR lenses are really quite good below that they start to have issues. Why is that I don't know and don't care since im not in the business of designing lenses.

If I get my hands on a 5DS/R ill gladly post comparisons.    

It's easier to make "normal" lenses sharp than those that has to be retrofocus or tele, that's why. That's why Schneider Digitar symmetric lenses can perform so well with a minimal amount of lens elements, as (almost) all are "normal" designs.

There is no wide angle in the Otus line yet. It will be very interesting to see what they can do, as it will be more difficult to design, the lens will be huuuge with lots of glass for sure.

The DSLR lenses you mention is not designed for very high res sensors, Otus is in its own class here and that's why it would be very interesting to compare and see what that lens line can do in combination with high res sensors. I think it will do well. A trouble now though for high res photography with DSLRs is that the choice of lenses that can come close or possibly match MFD is very narrow, in fact maybe its only Otus lenses that come close.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 08:29:25 am by torger »
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