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Author Topic: audiophiles gone crazy (again)  (Read 29007 times)

jjj

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2015, 08:46:09 am »

Hum... that's really a matter of taste I would say.
A good answer.

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USB with Audirvana is sharper, incredibly defined, but a bit harsh at times.

On the other hand Air though wired internet is more fluid but feels less defined and suffers from interruptions once in a while.
Is Air another player?
And how does Audirvana compare to other software players in your experience?

Now testing Audirvana, but cannot compare to iTunes as Itunes now cannot output unless via Audirvana. Cannot find any way to change that, which is not a good sign.  :(
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 09:01:04 am by jjj »
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PeterAit

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2015, 02:31:11 pm »

I did read and I did understand

No, actually you did not. So be it - conversation closed.
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amolitor

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2015, 02:51:20 pm »

I feel sure some people on here are twitting us now, but which ones?
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Petrus

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2015, 03:14:56 pm »

Hum... that's really a matter of taste I would say.

USB with Audirvana is sharper, incredibly defined, but a bit harsh at times.

On the other hand Air though wired internet is more fluid but feels less defined and suffers from interruptions once in a while.

Which works best depends on the kind of music and taste. Overall, I probably prefer ethernet.

Cheers,
Bernard


Which connection method gives the best quality with photographs? Most DR, largest gamut?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2015, 05:49:33 pm »

Which connection method gives the best quality with photographs? Most DR, largest gamut?

We all know that subject matters most, don't we! ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2015, 06:02:18 pm »

Is Air another player?
And how does Audirvana compare to other software players in your experience?

Now testing Audirvana, but cannot compare to iTunes as Itunes now cannot output unless via Audirvana. Cannot find any way to change that, which is not a good sign.  :(

Air is a proprietary Devialet solution that makes the integrated dac of the amp over the network look like a sound card seen from the OS. It is a totally asynchronous solution that re-builds the music stream from the IP packets a few physical mm before the dac inside the amp. In theory nothing should beat it in terms of delivering a jitter free replay.

I have to confess that I have not compared the softwares in a long time. I did compare Audirvana to iTunes and a few others and liked Audirvana best. Now, I found out later that I knew the developper of Audirvana by coincidence, and have not really looked back since then. Audirvana's moment of fame and reputation comes from the support of integer mode on the dacs supporting it. They were also faster to workaround the changes introduced by Apple in recent OSx releases.

I would think that killing both apps and restarting iTunes should fix your problem, but I guess you've tried that already?

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2015, 06:10:21 pm »

Have you tried running it through a Weiss DAC202 ?
I'd agree with your preference for Ethernet, although Air rules for practicality - but hard wired from a Mac mini into a DAC beats them both, IMO.

I used to connect my Mac mini to the then Dpremier through a Weiss Int202, but I have decided that set up simplicity was to remain the priority. Weiss products are definitely first class and I love the no crap/engineering only approach of Mr. Weiss.

I am ready to believe that using an external dac may result in yet better sound, but what I have now is already very good and that money will go somewhere else, possibly in an Otus 85mm f1.4 after it becomes available in Japan.

The SAM support of my Wilson Benesch Vectors is the next step, should be there in a few days. Lobbying works sometimes. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Manoli

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2015, 07:27:08 pm »

I am ready to believe that using an external dac may result in yet better sound, but what I have now is already very good ... The SAM support of my Wilson Benesch Vectors is the next step ...

Yes, very good is an understatement ...
Wilson Benesch Vectors - why am I not surprised ?

Best
M


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Petrus

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2015, 01:34:03 am »

We all know that subject matters most, don't we! ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I just thought if strange that the (asynchronous) connection method would affect the data content with music files, but not with photo files.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2015, 01:49:59 am »

Hum... that's really a matter of taste I would say.

USB with Audirvana is sharper, incredibly defined, but a bit harsh at times.

On the other hand Air though wired internet is more fluid but feels less defined and suffers from interruptions once in a while.

Which works best depends on the kind of music and taste. Overall, I probably prefer ethernet.

Cheers,
Bernard


I have used Audirvana for years now and I find it the best player on the Mac. I also got a power supply for the Audiophilleo USB/SPDIF converter I use with my Audio Note DAC. The clean power from the external power supply was clearly making an audible difference compared to powering the converter from the USB power.

I use these speakers http://www.teresonic.com/speakers/ingenium with a special amplifier also designed, voiced and made by Teresonic. The power tubes are 211 and the differences in the audio chain clearly comes out as the speakers are very discriminating. The DAC also has special tubes for improved clarity.

I have tried a number of different playback software for the Mac but found Audirvana to be the best. I use the upsampling to 96Khz for CD ripped material. I have also tried the Weiss DAC's but although they are very clear in the sound they do not sound as good in my opinion as the tube based DAC's. I never heard a solid state DAC that sounded really good. But that's just me :)

hjulenissen

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2015, 02:01:22 am »

That's a common error that people make. One may not hear the frequencies themselves as well, but the interference with other frequencies, or to draw the analogy to photography, the aliasing artifacts have a lower frequency which may well distort the real frequencies we can still detect. So there is a benefit to oversampling the high frequencies, even the ones we cannot hear.
Over 20 years or so, academics have tried to device tests that shows hirez audio (PCM @88.2kHz or more, DSD) to be audibly superior in a controllable, repeatable, relevant way. It is reasonable to claim that they have failed.

Oversampling (the process of increasing the sample rate digitally at e.g. playback) works really well on CD-quality material and is a method of moving filter complexity from the analog domain to the digital domain.

Published in the Journal of AES back in 2007:
"Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback*", E. BRAD MEYER, AES Member AND DAVID R. MORAN, AES Member, J. Audio Eng. Soc., Vol. 55, No. 9, 2007 September
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Now, it is very difficult to use negative results to prove the inaudibility of any given phenomenon or process. There is always the remote possibility that a different sys- tem or more finely attuned pair of ears would reveal a difference. But we have gathered enough data, using suf- ficiently varied and capable systems and listeners, to state that the burden of proof has now shifted. Further claims that careful 16/44.1 encoding audibly degrades high- resolution signals must be supported by properly con- trolled double-blind tests.

-h
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 03:06:33 am by hjulenissen »
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hjulenissen

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2015, 03:17:28 am »

You argued this before and there is also a bunch of people like yourself equally deluded who because they cannot discern any difference then claim equally falsely, that there can be no difference.
I did not claim that my own experiences is the limit of what others can experience. If that is your claim, then you have a reading issue or a truth issue.
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I certainly don't buy into some of the daft claims such as those made for the cables in the original post, but I have heard systems sound markedly better simply with decent connectors added. Homemade and very cheap connectors at that. Plus I had no idea the connectors had been changed, so unprompted I asked why the system now sounded better.
I am sure that your anectdotal experiences are sufficient for your needs. Please be aware that we now have this thing called "science". The physics of audio components, acoustic waves in the air and subjective perception of people when exposed to such waves is actually a topic that people do research. They publish their findings in reputed journals, under the scrutiny of other reasearchers, and yet other researchers will independently try to repeat their experiments. After a while of back-and-forth, the conclusion may (or may not) become a part of "established knowledge".

That mechanism (though with its flaws) is a big factor in being able to send people to the moon or make 80MP cameras. I'd argue that it is a mechanism that explicitly suppress our human nature. We seem to be rigged into seeing sabre-tooth tigers in the bushes, images of jesus in our coffee cups and what not. Humans are incredible poor at really understanding the world around us (myself included), therefore it is quite an accomplishment that we got this far as a society. We are really good at making art (including photography), caring about those that are close to us and lots of other things that more than offsets our scientific limitations, though.

-h
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 03:23:10 am by hjulenissen »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2015, 04:07:32 am »

Over 20 years or so, academics have tried to device tests that shows hirez audio (PCM @88.2kHz or more, DSD) to be audibly superior in a controllable, repeatable, relevant way. It is reasonable to claim that they have failed.

Again, I'm talking about the ADC quantization phase, not about encoding/storage or DAC output. If I'm to believe my own ears, I do hear the difference between 96kHz or 192KHz quantization and e.g. 44-48KHz, even when played back on 44Khz. It's not a huge difference (and hard to hear without a direct comparison), but e.g. acoustic guitar strings (which pick up a lot of additional sounds/'colour' from the way they are struck), sound a bit better. Part of it may be how it is DAC decoded, but it never sounds worse, even on modest playback equipment.

There are lots of analogies with photography, but there too a lot of people don't care about aliasing unless it's too obvious to miss.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 04:11:26 am by BartvanderWolf »
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

hjulenissen

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2015, 04:20:45 am »

Again, I'm talking about the ADC quantization phase, not about encoding/storage or DAC output. If I'm to believe my own ears, I do hear the difference between 96kHz or 192KHz quantization and e.g. 44-48KHz, even when played back on 44Khz.
The term "quantization" is usually connected with the number of bits used (e.g. 24), while the term "sampling rate" is usually used for e.g. 96kHz.

I believe that ADC and DAC manufactures in the last decades have tended to be oversampling designs, so that even if you request a sampling rate of "48000" from your ADC, it will likely operate at a rate many times that internally, using noise-shaping and downsampling to your desired rate.

Are you processing your recorded audio heavily? If applying things like heavy pitch-shifting, then, yes, any physical difference between A/D-converters can be made audible (just like photoshopping can make any minute sensor differences plainly visible).

There are plausible physical explanations for your observations, such as bad ADC design, bad resampler design but having been fooled many times myself I cannot help but speculate that expectations may be the cause here.

This question can be resolved by using ABX listening. I have used the abx_foo plugin for foobar2k that allows you to listen blind to two recordings (e.g. one where the DAC was set to 44100, another where the DAC was set at 96000, both resampled to the preferred rate of your playback system, e.g. 48000). If you get <5% "probability of guessing", you have established with some confidence that you probably hear some difference.
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There are lots of analogies with photography, but there too a lot of people don't care about aliasing unless it's too obvious to miss.
You will find that audio engineers tend to follow Nyquist more closely than their imaging peers.

-h
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 04:24:30 am by hjulenissen »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #94 on: February 23, 2015, 07:15:36 am »

Yes, very good is an understatement ...
Wilson Benesch Vectors - why am I not surprised ?

Yep, they are the perfect accessory for the Zeiss Otus! ;)

But seriously, they are some of the best speakers I've ever heard.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 07:54:46 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #95 on: February 23, 2015, 12:46:39 pm »

Yep, they are the perfect accessory for the Zeiss Otus! ;)

But seriously, they are some of the best speakers I've ever heard.

Cheers,
Bernard

Was this in a blind listening with a comparator?
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amolitor

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #96 on: February 23, 2015, 01:40:47 pm »

Just to repeat myself more clearly, in general when you hear a difference between two things that are most likely identical, you are in fact responding to other cues.

There may be slight differences in startup times of a track, say. If something is poorly designed, there may be occasional glitches, which are essentially inaudible, but allow you to subconsciously identify one thing over another, and then apply "more airy soundstage" verbiage to it, when in fact 99% of the time the sound is identical.

The ethernet versus USB versus whatever, for example. If the DAC is properly designed, the actual sound produced will be identical. However, in the case of, say, ethernet, the DAC (being properly designed) may choose to buffer slightly more data to guard against the somewhat stochastic nature of packet delivery on ethernet, resulting in a subtle startup delay. If your DAC actually sounds different, that is, the signal produced for any randomly selected 10 second interval mid-track, is not identical between USB and ethernet, it is broken and should be returned. But it probably does not.

Eliminating these variables is fiendishly difficult and not worth it.

It doesn't matter what the cues actually are. If your experience of the music is better with ethernet, or golden cables, or 500 pound granite turntables, then you are indeed hearing better sound. This is because hearing is a construct of the mind, NOT because the actual acoustic stuff going on in the air is any different. Usually.

Sometimes there's a real difference, usually because something is busted or poorly made.
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BJL

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audiophiles (and oenophiles) gone crazy
« Reply #97 on: February 23, 2015, 02:14:58 pm »

It doesn't matter what the cues actually are. If your experience of the music is better with ethernet, or golden cables, or 500 pound granite turntables, then you are indeed hearing better sound. This is because hearing is a construct of the mind, NOT because the actual acoustic stuff going on in the air is any different. Usually.
Agreed.  For me, this is like the fact that I am fairly sure that I get more enjoyment when I occasionally serve good wine in stylish wine glasses than if I were to serve the same wine in recycled jam jars; the "holistic pleasure" goes beyond the ability to discriminate as measured in a double blind A-B-X.  (But I wouldn't spend $10,000 upgrading from my current ~$10/each wine glasses; I'll spend the money on the wine itself.)

Should we next debate the recent Riedel strategy of selling numerous different type of wine glass, one for each grape variety?
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #98 on: February 23, 2015, 03:18:52 pm »

For all those confused by all the digital audio tech talk concerning quality control through quantization, DAC, high bit data, etc. I offer a more simple but concise explanation by engineer Monty at xiph.org...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM

Don't confuse high bit data output with capture input which is the photographic equivalent of claiming more data is seen with 14 bit camera ADC captures processed and interpolated to 16 bit ProPhotoRGB in ACR/LR but viewed on an 8 bit video screen as long as you use a gold plated display cable connection.

How the hell can anyone find the weak link that affects quality in that spaghetti chain of complex inter-connectivity? I've got some special bundled securities I'ld like to unload at a cheap price if you don't ask too many questions.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 03:23:04 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: audiophiles gone crazy (again)
« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2015, 04:31:58 pm »

Was this in a blind listening with a comparator?

Definitely not.

Cheers,
Bernard
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