Frame Moulding Sources

[Mike Sellers]

I need to print some 30x40 prints so I am going to make my own frames. I`ve checked ebay but wonder if there might be other suppliers?
Mike

[bill t.]

Omegamoulding.com is an old time favorite for low cost moulding.  Ships from NJ and CA, and perhaps also TX.  Very strict application requirements, you have to have a credit card.  Always palatizes orders of more than 6 boxes, that's a big deal for shipping survivability.  You'll learn more than you ever wanted to know about the perils of Freight when you start buying boxes of moulding.

Decormoulding.com is another low-baller, also ships from NJ although Southermouldingonline.com handles their line in Atlanta.  Both those suppliers are high on my PITA list.

Internationalmoulding.com continues the cheap tradition.  Ships from the Southeast somewhere.  Only a semi-PITA.

So there's a starter list.  Those all have mostly old fashioned style moulding, which I guess still sells.

Slightly up the ladder is Larson Juhl, which for a lot of cities has a free delivery scheme.  Genuinely strict about their customers, when last I looked you had to have a storefront.  At last year's WCAF I showed them receipts for over $40,000/year worth of moulding.  They just looked down their noses at my garage operation, which had made me the largest moulding buyer in the state of New Mexico according to Omega.  P**s on 'em.

Studiomoulding.com has very nice, mostly wood-themed moulding.  Not horribly expensive and a very safe, contemporary look.

Garrettmoulding.com is another wood-centric supplier working out of some of my favorite quonset huts in Santa Cruz, CA.  Nice folks, super-safe contemporary look.  Some top quality poly moulding as well.

And lots of others.

There are some very nice polystyrene mouldings out there, sprinkled among mostly horrid-looking stuff.  Tenplusframes.net is one, which also has a place on my PITA list.  Mymoudling.com is another, definitely on the good guy list.  With poly you can make lightweight, enormous pieces that can still hang on the wall with 2 nails into the drywall only, no need to hit the studs.  Poly is also super easy to join with no underpinner required,  provided you have the right saw blades and you mind has not previously been distorted by the techniques used to join wood.  Very strong frames if joined correctly, which most framer do not because of trying to use wood techniques.

You just missed wcafexpo.com in Las Vegas.  Would have served you very well.

 

[Justan]

If you are planning on making only a few frames, I recommend contacting the company that makes the frame moulding you like and ask for one of their distributors that is close to you. The distributors commonly make frames for a lot less than retail framers do, and distributors also sell moulding and related in volumes.

Using Bill’s example of International moulding, I contacted them a while ago as they make a moulding I use a lot of, and they pointed me to a company in CA which is their distributor located closest to my location. The company name is Valley Moulding. Valley Moulding sells frames, chops, cuts and bulk moulding. They also sell most of the other supplies anyone would need. Valley Moulding is one example of where International Moulding uses as a distributor. They have others across the USA and probably beyond.

Like International Moulding, most other moulding manufacturers have the same kind of distribution network setup but some both make moulding and also sell directly. Studio is an example of a direct seller, iirc. It will only cost you a phone call to find out.

Anywho, for smaller volumes your best bet is to find a local distributor who also makes frames to order. Unless you are buying in box lot, this is a way better value than retail or rolling yer own.

To make frames from finished moulding you need a good compound miter saw or two, a good belt/disk sander, really accurate measuring devices to make sure all your cuts and sandings are precise and, of course you’ll probably want an underpinner, some miter clamps and a good dust removal system and some band aids.

FWIW, I recently built a frame making shop and just completed my first 40 frames. It is a lot of fun and i learned a lot in the process; not the least of which is that wholesale frame making is a good value…………………….

Also, be sure to check out the picture framer’s grumble web site. As it has a cornucopia of extremely useful information.

Oh, and if you want to use Larson Juhl, ask a friend with a store front if you can use their address .

[Justan]

Bill, if you haven’t done so, check out Ontrack for shipping up to 2 boxes at a time. They do 2 day delivery from CA to my place in the stix in WA for $45 per 9’ long box.

Such a deal!

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...wholesale frame making is a good value……………………

Do you mean by that 1. buying from a wholesaler is a better value than doing it yourself or 2. turning your framing shop into a wholesaler is a good business or 3...?

[BobShaw]

I need to print some 30x40 prints so I am going to make my own frames. I`ve checked ebay but wonder if there might be other suppliers?
Mike

That is a bit like saying I need to take a picture so I am going to make my own camera. Good framing equipment will set you back about $15,000. You can buy hobby equipment but that will probably be the quality of the result. Your work will sell accordingly.

[bill t.]

Here's my take  on building my own frames.

Cost of 40 x 96 frame from wholesaler (wait time: 6 weeks), $300.00 (in my dreams) to $700.00 (when conscious).  It's easy to pay more.
Impact on selling price: at minimally acceptable 4x markup to cover gallery commissions: add $1200.00 to $2800.00 to already stiff price tag.

Cost to build awesome-looking 40 x 96 polystyrene frame in 30 minutes or less: $53.00.  Earnings for time spent can approach $1,000 per hour.
Impact on selling price: add as little as $212.00, or a whole lot more.  Competitive edge?  Oh yeah!


Equipment needed to build polystyrene frames:
Top quality TCG blade: $90.00
12" DeWalt miter saw: $350.00
Used Phaedra or similar fence: ~$600.00
Reasonably smooth table top: $0.00
Cost of the correct glue: $3.00 per frame, don't ask and I'll tell you no lies.
Underpinner: not needed and will seriously weaken your poly miter joints if used.  Poly is chemically welded, not nailed, and good joints last forever.
Framing clamps: are you kidding, don't use 'em with poly, big mistake!  Poly is not like wood.  Repeat several times.
Two strong hands: $0.00, not counting arthritis medication.

FWIW middle class people looking for impressive looking sofa-sized art at a "reasonable" price has always been a good market, and this last holiday season it was incredible.  They are very poorly served in terms of artwork and anybody not addressing that market is leaving lots of money on the table.

Yes it's true many suppliers have so-called local distribution.  Before counting on that, call them up those local guys and see how much they can actually supply, and when, and for how much, and for what shipping charges.  I've been very disappointed by nearby local suppliers and particularly in some their attitudes, and now only count on the distribution center suppliers who can bring any quantity to my door in 3 days or less.  Some of those local guys are really end-users in drag.

Justan, I envy you your low cost shipper. None of those guys toin' left at Albuquerque, so I'm stuck with the less-than-truckload big boys which forces me to schlep a lot of boxes at once to take the knife edge off the shipping minimums.

[Mike Sellers]

Thanks everyone for the info!
Bill-are you a one man operation? $40,000 in moulding in one year? Wow!
Mike

[huguito]

Any of those suppliers listed above sell cut to specs lengths of the mouldings?
So I could just glue/assembly the frame from finished stick

[bill t.]

Suppliers like Omega and Studio Moulding and most others will cut mitered sticks to your specification.  Those are called "chops."

But look out: the price for chops is is NOT based on the number of cuts, but on a hugely inflated price per foot for the total mount of moulding used.  For instance, suppose you buy a box of Peter-Lik-like Omega 80788.  $5.48 per foot for a box of 83 feet.  But ask them for chops for a 30 x 40 frame and you will pay $14.98 per foot used.  Should not take long to figure out that those of us who use big frames can get royally screwed by buying chops for big frames.

PS: 80788 now looks almost nothing like the picture on the web page, get used to it.

PS: sometimes chops have really good, precise miter cuts and you get pieces cut from nice straight moulding, and sometimes you don't.  Get used to it.

PS: wholesale suppliers like Mymoulding, Tenplusframes, etc supply box quantities only and do not do chops.

Yes I'm a one man operation, except at art fairs where my wife helps out.  I average two framed pieces per day, with a peak of about 4 from August through January.  This my kick-back season.  It was hard at first, now it's a piece of cake.  That's why I'm so into production techniques, every second saved adds up to more shooting time.  It's very important to design your product for easy manufacture (there, I said the word) avoiding silly stuff like mattes and glass and plex.  The public buys the image, just slap a frame around it and you're there.  Or just maybe, laminate it onto a panel, but the jury is out on that.  It's dollars earned per time spent, I sometimes pretend I'm running a business.

Edit: cutting is the easy part, joining is the hard part.  I you buy chops, you're really not saving yourself much trouble.

[Justan]

Edit: cutting is the easy part, joining is the hard part.  I you buy chops, you're really not saving yourself much trouble.

…or cost. Seriously 3x to 4x the cost of the moulding is pretty typical to get completed framed works from a wholesale framer. If you go to Michael’s, or a local framer it will be up to 10x the cost of the moulding. And that doesn’t include mattes or glazing.

Do you mean by that 1. buying from a wholesaler is a better value than doing it yourself or 2. turning your framing shop into a wholesaler is a good business or 3...?

Yes 

Seriously, for small volumes it is way better to buy frames made to order from a local wholesaler. In most cases one only needs a business license to do so. Sometimes not even that.

Modern mouldings are remarkable bit of manufacturing technology. But still they are an unpredictably imprecise media to do precision work with, and making good frames takes considerably more effort than might seem apparent when you pick up your frames from the local framer.

If I wasn’t making a lot of frames I would not bother. But as Bill noted, doing so opens the door to a competitive edge, but only once you’ve crossed a line in how much you spend on frame making in a year and then crossed other lines on becoming comfortable and then proficient working with the tools along with wood, and/or polystyrene media types.

That said, I enjoy doing that kind of work and for anyone that does, wood working is a fun if mildly dangerous pursuit.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I do canvas in standard sizes (20x30, 24x36, 30x40, etc). Is it possible to buy a frame (wooden preferably) that is already assembled to fit those standard sizes, so that all I need to do is to screw in canvas holders? Or perhaps cut at 45 degrees, so that I then join them etc. Or the tolerances are so tight (or lose) that a slight mismatch between the canvas and the frame would make it unusable? I guess what I am asking, is there a room for slight errors in dimensions?

[jferrari]

I do canvas in standard sizes (20x30, 24x36, 30x40, etc). Is it possible to buy a frame (wooden preferably) that is already assembled to fit those standard sizes, so that all I need to do is to screw in canvas holders? Or perhaps cut at 45 degrees, so that I then join them etc. Or the tolerances are so tight (or lose) that a slight mismatch between the canvas and the frame would make it unusable? I guess what I am asking, is there a room for slight errors in dimensions?

Framing industry standard is to add 1/4" to the requested measurement. For example, if you ordered a frame for a 24" by 36" print the framer would send you a frame whose rabbit dimensions would be 24 1/4" by 36 1/4" to allow for slight inaccuracies and wiggle room. Not meaning to be pedantic but the rabbit is the groove/slot/recess/plough/dado that the canvas/print/package goes into and has no bearing on the outside dimension of the finished frame.      - Jim

[bill t.]

http://www.dickblick.com/categories/frames/

I won't tell you about the companies importing across the border in San Diego, because framers will hate me.

Yes there's a standard for anywhere from 1/8" to 1/4" clearance on the inside of frames, but good luck with that in real life.  The only advantage I can think for mattes is that you can cut down the matte to find an undersized frame.  And that's one of many reasons why I glue my canvas to Gatorfoam, gives me the opportunity to trim down the art to fit.

When I last I looked at Hobby Lobby frames many years ago, the insides were mostly exact dimensions with no clearance at all.  Am not going back.  A stretched canvas has a high degree of unpredictability right from the start.  And then there's the issue of wanting to expand stretcher bars later to compensate for sagging canvas.  That goes a long way toward explaining the popularity of gallery wraps, which arose not so much as a style but as a concession to futility.

[Justan]

^Before I became my framer, my other framer was able to hit my specification that the frame rabbit be exactly 1/16 of an inch over the stated  size on the x and y axis, and they nailed it about 99% of the time. That way the pix fits perfectly and I didn’t need to waste time shimming the works.

Now that I’m my framer I’ve found that target is not so easy to hit, due to the variables of the media, but doable after some practice. That is one of the details that one doesn’t fully appreciate until you start to DIY but it makes for a large time saving when putting together a lot of frames and then fitting works to them.

[bill t.]

In a perfect world, the Order of Cutting would always be: frame first, glass second, art package third.  Which is arguably the inverse order of trimability.  And don't bleed on the art.

As a general rule, it is always wise to lay your art package on a table, then compare the first cut of each side of the frame with the existing art package.  And always cut the LONGEST frame side first.  In that way undersized frame sections can be re-cut to be the shortest side while also correcting the reason for the under-cut, and overly large frame sections can be easily trimmed.

FWIW it helps a lot if you do many pieces of each image, printed, mounted, and framed at the same times.  Saves a heckuva lot of otherwise repeated setup time.  Usually I try to use up a full box of moulding at a time that way, partly because moulding rarely matches from box to box.  In actual fact, it is sometimes best to frame two size-complimentary images at the same time, where one image uses the otherwise too-short or too-long cutoff pieces from the other image.  You'll soon come to know the likely pairs in your portfolio, and that's how I often gang up images for printing.

[Justan]

^I plan to make frames more or less as needed, to replace sold inventory. I could see making about 30 or so frames in an easy day once I have a few more tools and evolve the technique a bit. I will do the next batch of frames differently than this batch. This one amounted to a prototype production run. Plus I had to figure out the all-important magic number, which is the relationship between the size of the rabbit and actual length of the cut stick, to end up with the rabbit size needed. Once I had that detail worked out, measuring was a snap.
 
I agree that it’s way better to cut everything of a given length at a batch. That way you setup one time and do the production. The downside is the risk of organizing larger runs by size is that mixing parts is almost unavoidably built-in.

The moulding types I use are obnoxiously consistent….as much as manufactured gesso moulding is consistent, which is to say highly so for color and presentation, but also consistently variable for the actual dimensions of any given stick, the number of ways it warps at any given place, and the small percentage that explodes at odd times during cutting or joining.

I’ve been cruising the vast repository of used frame making toys that is skylinepictures.com for a Phaedra or Clearmount cutting grid on the west coast and have found a couple of good candidates. Naturally, they aren’t anywhere near the west coast. A set of grids will be among the next additions for the shop and I already made 2 inquiries. I’ve also been looking at dust removal systems and just bought a lot bigger air compressor for the underpinner. Should have the goodies in time for the next production run, after this show ends.

[Mike Sellers]

Bill,
Great info-thanks

[Justan]

Thanks for your feedback, Bill. Always appreciated.

Just a few responses….

>Gesso moulding...AAARRGHH!  Chip city, try to avoid that stuff.  Not suitable for use in the ham-fisted environment of art fairs.

Respectfully disagree. Having exhibited a 10’ x 20’ booth of these at over 20 major shows during the last 12 months, I’ve had very few issues related to scratches or chipping. Touch up markers solved the problems.

Good packaging for transport helps, but the moulding is pretty tough. The small stuff I use is made of a synth that’s bonded to hardwood and the finish applied to the top. This particular moulding is made by International. I don’t know but suspect the same technology is used widely.

You might be thinking of a different type of gessoed moulding, which is more like a plaster finish and about as fragile.

I found a great buy on OEM DeWalt 80 teeth carbide tipped saw blades in 2 packs that cost less than having blades sharpened. If I only get 100 frames per blade, the blade cost will be ~ $0.24 per frame. I suspect they’ll last longer.

I inquired at The Grumble about the # of teeth members use with their saws. To my surprise most that replied use an 80 tooth blade. The consensus there is that they last as long and are lower cost than a blade with more teeth. As long as the blade is sharp there is no difference in the quality of the cut based on the # of teeth. If the blade is not sharp, there is no difference in the quality of the chips.

>If you're getting too much warpy, nasty moulding move on to something else.  Things like that run in streaks that may persist over several batches, until the supplier gets enough complaints.

My reason for the previous comment is that this kind of variable is typical when you DIY and many are surprised by that. For any problems, the vendor I buy from issues a credit for the length with issues.

>If you are willing to use the best grades of polystyrene moulding, you would not need an underpinner or framer's clamps, both of which lead to very weak poly miter joints. 

How do clamps weaken a joint while a bond is curing? That aside, I’ll have to look at polystyrene at some point. I liked what I saw in your recent booth photo which you posted at LL. I get 2.25” burl finish walnut for about the same as you get 4” poly, iirc.
 
>Oh, the mechanical impact of those manual Fletcher point drivers will turn your hands into arthritic claws by age 55.  Just thought I'd mention that while you can still tie your own shoelaces. Get a Fletcher pneumatic point driver as your very first investment.

Thanks, I’ll add that to the list.

> Phaedras are nice but really nothing special.

I have mixed feelings about this tool. I’ve used T squares or long straight rulers plus, a brick as my production stop when making multiples of the same length. I’m a utilitarian (read that “thrifty”), and that combination has worked really well.

On the other, other hand, with frame moulding, I can save a couple of minutes per cut by having the scale integrated into the table. as you noted, it could just be a ruler but the diagonal lines of the Phaedra are helpful and cool.

The other thing I like about the Phaedra system is the clamp-in-place production stops to for multiple cuts of the same length. That saves time - and - no more brick gravel!

I think I mentioned above a place that sells the Phaedra grid which I can glue to anything. With that I won’t get buggered for exorbitant shipping costs for aluminum slabs I really don’t need. I’m leaning toward buying the grid only. I can make a clampy production stop thingies out of a vice grip and a long fence from some scrap aluminum for about $20. That approach is very appealing to my thrifty side, and why I have mixed feelings about buying a Phaedra....

For readers, Clearmount is the other manufacturer of this kind of grid tool and they are in business where Phaedra is not.

>Moulding tends to pull in towards the cut, and poor clamping is reason #1 for the existence of those ridiculous sanders.

Agreed. This was the biggest issue during the first production run due mostly to having to fabricate some clamps. For that I used some moulding which I covered with adhesive backed felt and then inverted and secured to the saw fence with a C clamp. But, bummah for me, it was not tight enough for the wild dw705. The 705 shakes more than an old Harley at startup and was the jitterbug in the ointment. I added an extra 1/16” to each stick to compensate for that detail. Eventually i'll get another dw716.

In the mean time, the real solution is proper clamps for the saws. I received those a couple of days ago. I’ll still use the felt covered moulding as provides a perfect interface and is wide enough so it will not make perceptible dents on the moulding.

I also received my digital read out, rapid angle finder. Hurray! That guarantees about as accurate of a 45 degree angles as is possible to by mere mortals.