What shall I think of when buying a used 203FE?

[philipus]

Hello everyone

I have the possibility of buying a Hasselblad 203FE from 1997 with the 80mm f2.8 FE and an ECC back. I know my way around used Canon FD, EOS and Leicas but new to the Hasselblads. What should I think of and check before deciding to buy? For instance, is there a way of finding out the shutter count?

Thank you very much in advance
Philip

[Chris Livsey]

Biggest issue is, for me, you can use CF lenses with a 203 BUT you must stop down the lens to meter, the CFE lenses do not have this limitation but they are much more expensive and less plentiful S/H.
if you are starting from zero this is less of an issue.
They are complex to repair and Hasselblad themselves, with consequent cost, is probably best as many independent repairers will not quote.
They get through batteries at an alarming rate.
The ECC back allows zone metering but the 203FE body does not.
Shutterbug had an article when the price was dropped late in life around 2002.
http://www.shutterbug.com/content/hasselblad-203fe-revisitedbrnew-pricing-pro-workhorse

http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/01/26/intro-to-hasselblad-v-series/
As a general guide with what to look for in used 'blads.

In the UK they sell complete (back lens (80) finder) for usually just around £2,000.

Unless a service centre has some clever kit I don't know any way of knowing the shutter count.

[philipus]

Thank you very much for the reply and the information, Chris.

Yes, I understand the limitations of the 200-series when it comes to some of the older lenses but I'm entering the Hasselblad system from scratch so it's less of a problem (though higher lens prices are of course not ideal). It's the automation of the 203 that I am interested in because I intend to shoot mainly transparency.

Thanks also for the info about the servicing. I've heard of a few places in Sweden (apart from Hasselblad itself) that service them so there may be other options (apparently LP Foto in Stockholm has a guy that services lenses).

How much battery does it use?

Perhaps I was wrong about the ECC back - it's this back:



I've been wondering how the camera handles with the PM5 and a handle - is that acceptable for handheld "SLR"-like eye level operation?

br
Philip

[itsdoable]

I shoot with a 200fe and a mix of C, CF, F, FE and adapted lenses.

You can download the manual, and use that as a guide to check that all the electronic and mechanical functions work properly. I do not know any way to get the shutter count.

I always wanted one when they were introduced (I was using a 500c) and now they are "affordable". I prefer to have a meter integrated, and welcome exposure automation when it is warranted. Mine (used) appears to have a pretty high shutter count, the plastic light baffle that bends with the mirror broke and jammed the mirror shortly after I bought it. I was able to get the replacement part from Hasselblad USA.

Batteries: the manual claims a ~1000(s) exposure meter actuations (can't remember the # exactly, but in that range). In practice, I have to replace the battery more than once a year. (On the other hand, a 2000 series runs forever on a battery...)

The 200fe works with all the V lenses. If you are using the waist level finder, I would advise not to meter stopped down with C/CF lenses, as the meter does not have a compensation circuit to read the light coming in from the waist level finder opening (unlike Rollei meters). The leakage is exaggerated when you stop down, causing the meter to read too high (under expose). Instead meter full open and set the +EV compensation to the number of stops down from full open that you set the lens too. By using the EV compensation, you can also shoot in AE mode, working with the lens wide open like you would with an FE lens. With the meter turned off, it works like any 500 series body.

The back shown is an ECC, it will work fine. E backs do not have the Zone setting dial.

The 200fe handles very nicely with a grip and PM5 (I have the PME51). Probably better with a 90deg prism (I haven't tried). But that makes the whole outfit pretty large - the hasselblad V's are very compact (for a 6x6), and the minimum kit (body, back, WLF) is very portable. Adding the prism & grip make it less so. So I've learned to use the reversed left-to-right waist level finder - which is not hard as I grew up using a Rollei TLR.

[Chris Livsey]

How much battery does it use?

30 rolls of 120, that may be a lot or a little depending on you. Some bodies seem to drain them faster than others, or report that. There are no issue servicing the lenses or the "ordinary" bodies it is the electronics that are the issue in this series. That said if they were going to fail early that time has passed we are now down to ageing.
 
Have you looked at the H series? You get the automation and a shutter count 

[epines]

With all due respect, the battery in my 203FE lasts much longer than 30 rolls of 120. As long as you keep the dark slide in when it's sitting in the bag at home, the battery lasts a very long time. Not sure I can quantify it, but I've used the same battery for two shooting trips abroad totaling about 80 rolls of 120. Still going strong.

It's a great camera. Shutter speeds in half-stops, the ability to use CF and F / FE lenses, the ability to run without a battery with CF lenses. And I use the 50mm / 2.8 lens for about 90% of what I do with that camera.

[Chris Livsey]

With all due respect, the battery in my 203FE lasts much longer than 30 rolls of 120.

No problem, experience and expectations vary widely, as I said some bodies tend to drain more than others and the way they are used, lots of measuring not much shooting versus a shot each time must make a difference. our expectations of battery life since digital have changed a lot as well. Certainly not a killer. Looking around, yes you have set me off, the prices are held I think because of availability, not many about. I suppose especially at the price they were not the volume sellers in the range.

Out of interest, and not massively OT I hope, I just ran a roll through my H1 to test the CF adapter which returned from a Hasselblad service with each lens on 100iso B/W. At infinity the CF glass matched the 80mm HC (which is optimised for closer work) and the 150mm CF (which gets a slightly bad press against the 180mm) was equal or better than the 80HC with the converter. Basically for film work it's choose the focal length you want not make a particular lens which is good work for you. 

[philipus]

Thank you very much for the further replies and this wealth of information.

Changing battery once or even twice a year is OK with me. Epines - thank you for the suggestion regarding keeping the dark slide in while in the bag). And the battery-less operation with the CF lenses is also very useful. Apart from having to use a particular type of lens, the 203FE will then work like a Leica M6. Very handy.

Chris, the reason I asked regarding the shutter count was to figure out how much it has been used. But it's not that important. I realise that buying used camera equipment one takes a risk that a service will be needed, and with Hasselblad, as I understand it, they tend to cost quite a bit (as with Leicas, I imagine, so I am used to that). Btw, I found this page on the Hasselblad site which provides lots of information about what they do, cost estimates (mainly for the H system) etc. I wish Leica had this level of detail on its site.

I've actually considered the H system. In Sweden I've seen several used H2 and H3 kits for between 2500-4500€. That's about the price of certain Leica lenses  But I'm not sure how they work with a film back. Plus I don't really want to have a digital camera. I think the 203FE would suit me really well.

Now I have the trouble of deciding between two 203FE kits. One as above and another which comes with the 110/2, PM5, PM90, E12, E24 and Winder. The latter is around 300€ more but it is a bit worn, esp on the rear of the body. Decisions decisions.

br
Philip

[Chris Livsey]

I've actually considered the H system. In Sweden I've seen several used H2 and H3 kits for between 2500-4500€. That's about the price of certain Leica lenses  But I'm not sure how they work with a film back.
Philip

Just for information the H1, H2 and H3D can take a film back, or a digital back. They cannot use the HCD lenses this is locked out in software/firmware. The H3DII is digital back only. Some later models H4X H5X have been made to accept film backs again.

Wear on the back especially between the base and 2cm up  where the magazine is attached is a warning of frequent heavy handed back changes it points to pro or hire use. Of course if serviced etc the camera will operate properly.

[philipus]

Thank you, I didn't realise this about the H models. Good to know.

The info on the wear on the back is very helpful. This image would indicate that the one that comes with the 110/2 has been used that way. I asked the dealer to check with the previous owner (pro) if it had been serviced and the answer was no, it had not. So that one's out then. Makes my choice a lot easier haha.



br
Philip

[itsdoable]

From the serial #, that body was made in 1998 (200fe's were made from 1994~2004).

The wear on the film gate is pretty typical, not as bad as many I've seen.

Batteries: life is based on Meter actuations, so if you don't constantly check the meter without exposing, your battery life will be better. I can easily believe 30 rolls if I check meter a lot, and I'm using an alkaline battery.  I'm not convinced that some bodies consume batteries faster, I think it's mostly personal use. One of the confounding factors is that the meter is actuated when the red button on the side is pressed (exposure lock), and that button sticks out quite a bit - it is very easy to press accidentally. More so, that button is easily actuated when the camera is in a bag, and many people (not many really, but there are not that many 200fe's either) have reported almost dead batteries when they pull out their camera. Care with how you store the body helps a lot.

[epines]

That's probably why I get so much more battery life -- I seldom use the meter. Usually use a handheld meter. Although the meter is excellent when needed. For maximum battery life, I was advised to store it wound with the dark slide in.

Another nice thing about CF lenses, besides the option of battery-free operation, is they give you the option of flash sync at 1/500 rather than 1/90 with the camera's shutter. That being said, the 50/2.8 FE and 110/2 FE are unique and very useful lenses.

As for ambient light affecting the meter when using a waist-level finder, I think the perfect solution is the HM2 chimney finder. It's by far the best finder I've used on Hassy bodies. Magnification is greater than the prisms, you still get the waist-level viewing experience and viewpoint, and it's sharp across the frame. The standard pop-up waist-level viewer is only sharp in the center of the magnifier.

I'll likely never sell that camera.

[philipus]

From the serial #, that body was made in 1998 (200fe's were made from 1994~2004).

(---)

One of the confounding factors is that the meter is actuated when the red button on the side is pressed (exposure lock), and that button sticks out quite a bit - it is very easy to press accidentally.

Thank you for correcting the year of manufacture. One year younger

I quickly checked the 203FE manual - there doesn't appear to be an on/off button or have I missed that? I guess one could pull out the battery to be sure, for instance when travelling.

Now which lenses to go for that's the next big question which I look forward to considering Am I right in believing that the FE 80/2.8 is optically the same as the non-FE versions, except that coatings differ? I am imagining using this camera for street photography with fast flash sync for brightening up the photos/increasing contrast so - since I am very much a 50mm shooter in 135 (and mainly shoot landscape format) - I guess I will have to buy an 80mm CF.

I'm quite familiar with the Leica system where lens differences and development over the years are very well documented in various books. Is there similar documentation for the Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad? I have the Wildi manual and have seen the Zeiss page but these sources don't go into older lenses.

Br
Philip

[epines]

There's no on/off button. The dark slide functions as on/off. When the dark slide is out, the camera is ready to go. But it only does active metering when you press a button. If the camera is sitting there untouched, with the dark slide out, it's in a sort of dormant state (not displaying any readings).

I don't know if there are any differences between the 80 CF and FE. As far as I know, they're identical, except for the CF having an internal shutter. Do yourself a favor and get an 80 CFE, not just a CF. That "E" means you have electronic contacts, and the camera will meter accurately without your having to stop down the lens. The camera will know where you've set the aperture on the lens. It makes a world of difference.

If you're also interested in a 50mm, I'm probably selling my 50mm CFi lens. (There's no such thing as a 50mm CFE, unfortunately.) It's in fantastic condition. Let me know.

ethan

[Chris Livsey]

these sources don't go into older lenses.

Br
Philip

This is the classic source of information on the older lenses:
https://isurplus.com.au/manuals/Hasselblad%20Lens%20Guide.pdf

These are the historical data sheets:
http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLds.aspx

[itsdoable]

The dark slide is not really an off switch, it mechanically prevents the shutter button from being depressed. With the dark slide in, you can still turn on the meter (and drain the battery) with the exposure lock button. Hence the issue/complaints about the battery. Pulling the battery is easy, but that also resets all settings to default, which may not be an issue.

The 80CF and FE lenses are optically the same, I can take the optical blocks out of a CF lens and insert them into an FE lens. For the most versatility, the 80CFE has both the central shutter and electronic contacts. CF(E) lenses weigh more and have a longer MFD than F/FE lenses. FE and CFE lenses work best with the 200fe as they enable full meter functions. FYI I use the FE lens, the "CF" function (even on the CFE lens) cannot use the exposure automation or meter efficiently with the central shutter. Since I mostly bought the 200fe for these functions, I would mostly use a CFE lens in "E" mode. Different story if you use a lot of flash.

[philipus]

My apologies for replying late. Today I received the camera and of course immediately had to take a photo of it  I'm very pleased with it.

One of the confounding factors is that the meter is actuated when the red button on the side is pressed (exposure lock), and that button sticks out quite a bit - it is very easy to press accidentally.

On my camera the exposure lock button doesn't stick out but is surrounded by a shroud or an edge. From looking at photos online it seems this must have changed at some point in the production.

From checking mine, it seems that 1) with the dark slide and 2) the camera unwound the exposure lock button won't activate the meter. I've read that a camera should be stored wound, however, so perhaps it is bad practice to store it this way?

Thank you all very much for the help you've given me in this thread.
br
Philip

[Chris Livsey]

Congratulations, you'll love her I'm sure. Just something about those big square negatives and you look through the viewfinder just for the pleasure, SLR's look like toy telescopes after.
Nice shot as well