manual crank laminator

[mstevensphoto]

hey folks,
   I don't do much mounting so I got myself a manual crank laminator. so far it's been a chore. I know consistent speed is paramount. the thing I keep finding is that I get roller dents randomly in my gator. if I use less pressure the image doesn't mount (currently using optica one and miracle muck). before I buy a very expensive roll of cold laminate film I'm wondering if any of you think it can actually be done with my current setup? using double sided laminate I should be able to roll on the adhesive and then roll on the image, but am I likely to be able to get it even and also have enough pressure to keep it stuck?
thanks

[Garnick]

hey folks,
   I don't do much mounting so I got myself a manual crank laminator. so far it's been a chore. I know consistent speed is paramount. the thing I keep finding is that I get roller dents randomly in my gator. if I use less pressure the image doesn't mount (currently using optica one and miracle muck). before I buy a very expensive roll of cold laminate film I'm wondering if any of you think it can actually be done with my current setup? using double sided laminate I should be able to roll on the adhesive and then roll on the image, but am I likely to be able to get it even and also have enough pressure to keep it stuck?
thanks

For many years I used a crank laminator, but not a cheap one.  I bought it from Interlam and it was very well built and solid.  About ten years ago I called the company to order more laminate and the sales fellow mentioned that they had a new motor driven model from Interlam that someone had ordered and didn't pick up.  When I went to pick up the laminate I looked at the machine and was very impressed, so I purchased it.  I've never had any problems with it and use it a lot.  However, I did keep the crank machine in case there was ever a problem with the motor.  Then the crank model would fill in while the motor was being fixed.  Fortunately I've never had to put the crank model back in service, but I know it would still do the job.  If you have a good crank model it will serve you very well, although the motor driven model is somewhat more convenient.  Pressure is not really a critical issue.  Pressure sensitive adhesives and laminates do not require a great deal of pressure and they should work very well.  The adhesive is rolled on and then the release paper is removed as you begin to mount the print.  One thing to keep in mind is that canvas does not work well with pressure sensitive adhesives.  It will stick for a while and then you'll notice bubbles where the adhesive has released.  Thermal adhesives work well for canvas, or the "miracle much"(as I understand).  I get my adhesive and laminate from Drytac.

Hope this helps, Gary.    

[bill t.]

This old German guy is fun to watch.  He's the Michael Jordan of laminating.  He's makes it look about 10 times easier than it is, because he's got seriously good technique.

There are several of these videos, watch them all and you will truly learn something about laminating.

This is the #2 video, start here.  #1 was a marketing afterthought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfiltdh77A0

PS, you're either using too much pressure, or you rollers excessively non-concentric.  One of those videos shows you how to set the pressure.

A good test not shown in the videos is to run a 12 x 40 piece of gator through either side of the machine close to the sides of the rollers, and slightly adjust the pressure at that side until the gator goes straight through with no sideways movement at both sides of the roller, with just the right pinch.  The right pinch is rather sparing, nowhere near enough to crush Gator or even fomecore.

Another good tip is buy a 4" Scotch Jumbo Lint Roller at the supermarket, the kind with the peef-off sheets.  The Scotch version has an offset handle that works well even when the roll is small.   Press that up against the top roller and rotate the roller to remove crud that might dent the print.  Also very useful for cleaning Gator and the back of the print before laminating, and provided the roller is not too fresh and super-sticky, also for cleaning the surface of coated prints.  I also have a 12" wide peel-off dust remover with a long handle than I bought at Target which is great for cleaning big sheets of Gator prior to Muck-mounting.

If you adopt the procedure of applying the laminate film to the gator first, and then mounting the bare print on that package, you will never have to adjust your fine-tuned machine provided you are mounting only.  Get the pinch right, then leave it alone.  Put pieces of tape on the adjustment handles so you can detect any creep, and if your machine has lock nuts use those too.

I have been testing with one of those junkers and I'm actually getting excellent results, but there's no way anybody is ever going to be successful mounting 44 x watever prints without a motor and without high quality rollers.

Edit: have also seen some bad Gator lately.  For a couple months cases were coming through to 2 or 3 of the 15 sheets having 12" cuts in the center, as if the rubber padding had come off some handling machine at the factory.  Also have seen a few voids visible through the cut sides of the Gator, so I've been carefully pushing my hand down against the sheets to find any of those before mounting.  So far have only found 1 in 30 sheets, but I saw at least two voids on the edges in that amount.  The supplier has a huge cart of returned Gator sheets for cheap.  However, the last carton was perfect so maybe it was a temporary hiccup in production.

[Phil Indeblanc]

that guy is super! love it. Entertaining AND informative!

Very helpful stuff Bill. I think I'll go grab a couple of those 12" and drop them off at my mounter, as he managed to screw up 4 of my prints. Sure he didn't charge, me, but who pays for my prints?
I wish I had room for a 44" (I can print 44" yet do most under 40" and I don't want to buy twice), I rather do them myself if I have to deal with messed up prints.

My mounter was saying how the Gator board has stuff on it, and he didn't see it and was surprised it was dirty like that. and I thought everyone brushes down the boards before handling it to mount? The sides/edges are razor sharp too. Something like a scuff pad or fine sandpaper could work. Then I guess use that sticky roller.  

Another thing I noticed on the black on black core boards I have been using.... The first batch I got the core is a charcoal color, and the second batch, some were again charcoal and a few of them darker closer to a black.
Do they vary, or did he use other material?

How much would a junker quality 44" manual laminator cost vs a decent quality? (besides the $pace it will take up)

[bill t.]

All mounting boards come with pre-applied junk on them.  It's the industry standard.  Just wait until you get into Sintra, oh yeah!  That's why there are lint rollers, and the much more expensive blue rollers in the videos.  I think lint rollers may be preferable, they sure are more convenient.

I've got Gator mounted prints stacked up against too many walls several sheets deep, and they all look the same...from the back.  And arguably from the front.  Yes, those Gator edges are vicious!  Don't ever hand a non-sanded Gator print to another unsuspecting human being!  As you get better at making cuts with your utility knife held perfectly vertical your edges will become less deadly, but never quite harmless.

To the OP, I have been deliberately choosing relatively thin and supple media for my laminating experiments.  Relatively light weight, 15 mil Silver Rag is the best so far for that and for other reasons having to do with coating and appearance.

A definite don't-laminate recommendation is Hahn Baryta FB, which is one the most rigid and curl-prone papers I have ever seen!  The last foot of Silver Rag is less curly than the first foot of Baryta FB, coming of the rolls.  I've got a mounted 24 x 36 FB-on-Gator test going, will be keeping an eagle's eye on those edges for lifting.  Will be looking at some others soon.  I keep thinking about 10 mil RC papers, but I worry that minimal thickness would be eggshell-city.  FB is a little crushed in the highlights, BTW.

If you do need to use a very curly media put the long axis of the print along the long axis of the roll, the natural curl almost helps you through the rollers in that condition, otherwise it's a battle.  In any case it's probably best to decurl prints before laminating if only for easy handling.  Something I've heard from the pros is that running the print through in all four orientations is a good idea right after laminating, as is waiting a few hours and then doing that again.  I think David Fokos alludes to that on his site, talking about facemounting.

[Ernst Dinkla]

I have one of the Chinese made manual laminators. 130cm wide, 15 cm roll diameter, red rolls. Secondhand with perfect rolls as it was never used and did not age either. Used an old Epson 9000 spindle with 3" adapters to create a better adhesive roll feeder. Two types of adhesive rolls , both from Zenith, a thinner one for smooth backside papers and a thicker one for papers like the Museum Etching. Apply the adhesive directly to a standard 4x8 feet 2mm DiBond alternative (mom + pop job) and cut the pieces after that. Then mount the prints with a cold vacuum press, more gentle to the print surface, more precise in placing and I do not see less adhesion. Done RC paper,  Hahnemühle Photorag Baryta, Museum Etching, German Etching so far. Cut the mounted pieces after that to size on the board cutter to the Qimage corner marks. Have the blue Zenith dust pick up roller now that also replaces some yellow silicon rolls for cleaning film, purchased from Kimoto ages ago and still used for rougher tasks. Simco anti-static equipment dual brush and blower + air pistol is used after the PE protection foil is removed of the alu composite. Will assemble the laminator to a table in the Zenith fashion shown in the videos, that table already has the DIY canvas stretcher incorporated so no space wasted. I use a low density 10 mm thick expanded PVC sheet at the back instead of an alu profile frame. The way I glue it gives a perfect flat mounting total and tested with 5x the intrinsic weight applied (outdoors for more extreme changing temperature + humidity)  there are no signs the PVC delaminates. There have been issues with alu frames in the past when I had the mounting done by a third party.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[alain]

This old German guy is fun to watch.  He's the Michael Jordan of laminating.  He's makes it look about 10 times easier than it is, because he's got seriously good technique.

There are several of these videos, watch them all and you will truly learn something about laminating.

This is the #2 video, start here.  #1 was a marketing afterthought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfiltdh77A0

PS, you're either using too much pressure, or you rollers excessively non-concentric.  One of those videos shows you how to set the pressure.

A good test not shown in the videos is to run a 12 x 40 piece of gator through either side of the machine close to the sides of the rollers, and slightly adjust the pressure at that side until the gator goes straight through with no sideways movement at both sides of the roller, with just the right pinch.  The right pinch is rather sparing, nowhere near enough to crush Gator or even fomecore.

Another good tip is buy a 4" Scotch Jumbo Lint Roller at the supermarket, the kind with the peef-off sheets.  The Scotch version has an offset handle that works well even when the roll is small.   Press that up against the top roller and rotate the roller to remove crud that might dent the print.  Also very useful for cleaning Gator and the back of the print before laminating, and provided the roller is not too fresh and super-sticky, also for cleaning the surface of coated prints.  I also have a 12" wide peel-off dust remover with a long handle than I bought at Target which is great for cleaning big sheets of Gator prior to Muck-mounting.

If you adopt the procedure of applying the laminate film to the gator first, and then mounting the bare print on that package, you will never have to adjust your fine-tuned machine provided you are mounting only.  Get the pinch right, then leave it alone.  Put pieces of tape on the adjustment handles so you can detect any creep, and if your machine has lock nuts use those too.

I have been testing with one of those junkers and I'm actually getting excellent results, but there's no way anybody is ever going to be successful mounting 44 x watever prints without a motor and without high quality rollers.

Edit: have also seen some bad Gator lately.  For a couple months cases were coming through to 2 or 3 of the 15 sheets having 12" cuts in the center, as if the rubber padding had come off some handling machine at the factory.  Also have seen a few voids visible through the cut sides of the Gator, so I've been carefully pushing my hand down against the sheets to find any of those before mounting.  So far have only found 1 in 30 sheets, but I saw at least two voids on the edges in that amount.  The supplier has a huge cart of returned Gator sheets for cheap.  However, the last carton was perfect so maybe it was a temporary hiccup in production.

Thanks very nice video's.

Don't leve the lint rollers some glu residu?

[alain]

...
 Two types of adhesive rolls , both from Zenith, a thinner one for smooth backside papers and a thicker one for papers like the Museum Etching.

...
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Hi Ernst

Would those adhesive rolls work for small "hand" done jobs, aka without a laminator but with a roller on wood (mdf or laminated wood panels)?  (I have done that sort of thing with different adhesive sheets, but finding good adhesives is not that simple.)  I was thinking about the KKDV version.

Alain

 

[alain]

Hi

Has anybody experience with Zenith Art  Victor bar cutting rulers?

Alain

[Media59]

Definitely too much pressure if you're denting gator board. My seal 600 has stopped on gator board at times and didn't dent the board. It will on foam core or Jet Mount because it's soft, but only if you stop.
We run about 40 psi on the gauge and about 105 degree temperature, just enough to allow the adhesive to soften and flow smoothly.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hi Ernst

Would those adhesive rolls work for small "hand" done jobs, aka without a laminator but with a roller on wood (mdf or laminated wood panels)?  (I have done that sort of thing with different adhesive sheets, but finding good adhesives is not that simple.)  I was thinking about the KKDV version.

Alain

The thicker KKDV version gives a high tack on any substrate and paper. Even some siliconised papers are hard to pull off. The thicker version is more expensive though and for a smooth gloss paper not recommended, high gloss asks for smooth mounting substrates and a thin even adhesive layer.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[alain]

The thicker KKDV version gives a high tack on any substrate and paper. Even some siliconised papers are hard to pull off. The thicker version is more expensive though and for a smooth gloss paper not recommended, high gloss asks for smooth mounting substrates and a thin even adhesive layer.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

Ernst

I usually use Harman Gloss Baryta and with some glue sheets I was able to pull it of very easy.  After that I've become more prudent.

Alain

[bill t.]

For those in North America, Coda Mount's "Cold-Mount 1" and "Single Release White Adhesive" are equivalent to the Zenith thin and thick adhesives.  Coda will cut down rolls to exactly fit your requirements.

http://codamount.com/pressure-sensitive-adhesives.shtml

***********************

For those applying adhesives by hand, adhesives with two release liners are the best solution.  They have a release liner on either wide of the adhesive, which makes handling MUCH easier than with a single sided adhesive roll intended for laminating machines.

The trick is, whatever you are applying should have a 180 degree curve to it as it goes onto the substrate or adhesive surface.  Simulate the curve of a laminator roll.  The curve temporarily flattens out any wrinkles that would cause bubbles.  As you move along, press with your hand inserted just inside the curve.

If you get bubbles, work them out to the edge as quickly as possible.  In the worst case, you can make a pinhole into the bubble, but that may make circular ripples when you press it down.  Takes practice.

The tests I make a year ago with Coda's "Double Release Adhesive" are still hold holding a stiff paper print to 6 mm expanded PVC with no issues.

[alain]

...

For those applying adhesives by hand, adhesives with two release liners are the best solution.  They have a release liner on either wide of the adhesive, which makes handling MUCH easier than with a single sided adhesive roll intended for laminating machines.

The trick is, whatever you are applying should have a 180 degree curve to it as it goes onto the substrate or adhesive surface.  Simulate the curve of a laminator roll.  The curve temporarily flattens out any wrinkles that would cause bubbles.  As you move along, press with your hand inserted just inside the curve.

If you get bubbles, work them out to the edge as quickly as possible.  In the worst case, you can make a pinhole into the bubble, but that may make circular ripples when you press it down.  Takes practice.

The tests I make a year ago with Coda's "Double Release Adhesive" are still hold holding a stiff paper print to 6 mm expanded PVC with no issues.

I've worked with two release liners and one.  With one release liner you'll need a stand to put the roll on and it's more stressful, but I don't find it that more difficult.
I apply the adhesive with my hand going from left to right and back.  The picture is with a inkt-roller or a softer roller.
I can do it on my own, but it's a lot less stressful with two persons.

When punching a pinhole, I have learned to use an hair dryer.  The hot air escapes and pulls the print to the surface when cooling.


But after seeing the video's (from someone that's very crafted), I think about buying a cheap manual crank laminator (either 25" or 29").  It will only be very light use, but it seems a lot faster.


 

[bill t.]

But after seeing the video's (from someone that's very crafted), I think about buying a cheap manual crank laminator (either 25" or 29").  It will only be very light use, but it seems a lot faster.

When one comes to terms with the foibles of a particular manual laminator, the main limiting things are one's arm reach and deftness, which limit one's ability to remove release liners while also cranking or pushing.  When working solo, a meter length is about all I can safely handle.   An assistant is almost as useful as a motor, and one of the best reasons I can think of to get married.

In regards to those bubbles, I think your heat suggestion is a good tip and should work well in most cases.  FWIW I know a framer who heats up adhesive backed sheets and prints with a hair dryer just before application.

However, I got into trouble with bubble piercing when I had bubbles under an already coated print.  The Premier Art Print Shield coatings made the surface of the rag paper so rigid that it acted like an RC paper in its unwillingness to provide any give-and-take stretching.  Permanent circular "ringworms" were the result.  A 33 x 90 inch print and big piece of Gator, down the drain.  Was concerned that coating after mounting would produce shrinking that would stress the adhesive layer and encourage slow delamination.

Edit: should mention that my bubble problem occurred with glue mounting to Gator where the wet, glue-coated Gator had taken a curl, rather than with adhesive laminating.  Have had very good results mounting all kinds of coated prints with a roller laminator.  Definitely much easier to adhesive mount rigid media like RC papers, rather than to dry mount.  In the past I have rolled prints on to glued-up, slightly curled 3/16 inch (5 mm) Gator using a laminator with no problems, but I wonder if thicker Gator sheets would work as well.

[alain]

When one comes to terms with the foibles of a particular manual laminator, the main limiting things are one's arm reach and deftness, which limit one's ability to remove release liners while also cranking or pushing.  When working solo, a meter length is about all I can safely handle.   An assistant is almost as useful as a motor, and one of the best reasons I can think of to get married.

In regards to those bubbles, I think your heat suggestion is a good tip and should work well in most cases.  FWIW I know a framer who heats up adhesive backed sheets and prints with a hair dryer just before application.

However, I got into trouble with bubble piercing when I had bubbles under an already coated print.  The Premier Art Print Shield coatings made the surface of the rag paper so rigid that it acted like an RC paper in its unwillingness to provide any give-and-take stretching.  Permanent circular "ringworms" were the result.  A 33 x 90 inch print and big piece of Gator, down the drain.  Was concerned that coating after mounting would produce shrinking that would stress the adhesive layer and encourage slow delamination.

I fully understand the maximum length reasons and handling larger sheets becomes a problem to.

An assistant is nice, but with the manual method the assistant needs to know how to do it and how I am proceeding, that's sometimes tricky. 

[Phil Indeblanc]

This makes me want to get one of those 51" manual cranks and see how they work out. At $499,  I can't expect it to last a lifetime, but I think it maybe worth trying it. as long as the roll moves evenly on both sides and the screw down knobs are even.

[bill t.]

Thought long and hard about one of those 51" ebay specials, too.  Came within about 2 seconds of pulling the trigger on a much fancier machine today, except I'm not quite ready to receive it as I need to rearrange my shop configuration to accommodate a 75" wide whale.

Anyway, Phil, ahem, why don't YOU buy that 51" machine and tell me all about it?  

My only concern is that the 2.6 inch rollers on my 29" machine may be at the limit of sitffness for that size.  What's the width of the rollers on your 51" candidate?  When I was looking at those some models had 2.6" rollers, and some had much bigger.  I would definitely think the "much bigger" rollers were preferable for that much span.  In theory, small diameter rollers would be subject to bending during use, perhaps.

Don't know how long they would last.  I killed a 25" model by running non-deburred Dibond through it.  Amazing how fast a little tiny cut evolved into a gaping canyon, there's a lot of surface tension on those rollers.  Have also seen a few used laminators that had knife cuts on the rollers, which is why I have been using these Alvin Zippy Knives.  Lotsa times you need to made essentially zero visibility cuts to free up the laminated piece, mere millimeters from the rollers.

[Phil Indeblanc]

hehe...I too have space issues:-)

The one I was looking at the dia is 4.2" with silicone not rubber, claiming it is softer and won't harden.

[Mike Sellers]

Here is one from Italy that has gauges on the ends for even pressure.eBay item number:

201178088078