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Author Topic: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be  (Read 42468 times)

Dave Millier

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2015, 06:25:35 AM »

I don't see your criticisms as criticisms of the mirrorless approach, rather as critcism of particular camera models. 

I have an XE1 and I think it is a lovely camera: light, capable, not too small. I like the control layout and the minimalist viewfinder display (one thing I hate about my panasonics is that you can't display the essential viewfinder info without covering the screen with loads of irrelevant and confusing icons. You should be able to specify in the set up menu exactly what viewfinder icons and readouts you want and where they should display - it only needs a bit of programming).  But....
... the shape of the XE1 only really suits small, light lenses.  Larger, front heavy lenses spoil the feel because it lacks a DSLR bulky grip unless you start bolting on extras (and if you that, why not just get a DSLR).

For me, so far the best compromise form factor I've found is the Lumix G6.  It is shaped like a DSLR (but with a flattened prism hump) despite being small and light. The 45-150 lens I use on it is stabilised, weighs nothing and is perfectly balanced. For really big, pro style lenses, the DSLR is still the answer.


I've been playing with ILC's from various makers for a while now, picking up an adapter for my A mount lenses

A few things have struck me spending a bit of time with these types of cameras.
Firstly the "no viewfinder" models are simply not well suited to anything other than a small pancake or possibly "more compact" kit lens. The X-M1 I have is quite good, but using the adapter it was a disaster for camera shake, so I acquired an X-E1 which does have a viewfinder.

This body is better, I also prefer the jpeg output and it's better for using the lenses I have. But I'm also losing quite a bit for a few reasons
1: None of the Fuji bodies have IBIS, and so far no primes are stabilised this isn't the end of the world but it does really hurt things esp for longer focal lengths
2: Fuji are lying through their teeth on their ISO ratings, I did a controlled test v my A Mount bodies and the Fuji bodies are about a stop off, thus ISO 1600 on the A mount bodies is approx ISO 3200 on the Fuji near enough (looking at the actual exposure luminance) once I factor in IBIS I am at a disadvantage using Fuji in lower light levels
3: As soon as you start to mount heavier/longer lenses and plonk a flash on top the body becomes quite unbalanced really not comfortable at all. I do have a few grips for my SLR bodies I do use them if I'm doing this ie flash and lenses or portrait work, if not I take them off either way they are more "comfy"

It's not that I don't like the Fuji's (trying to sell the X-M1 as it's not really needed it's worth next to nothing anyway people can't seem to give them away)
I think the industry has to realise where to really push these cameras and I think they're a backward step in handing for some types of shooting. In the 70's and early 80's the SLR style was one with next to no grip this evolved over time to the current "grip" and body shape for ergonomic reasons I feel. The E mount cameras I've tried have the same problems small grips, the lower end bodies have no VF at all (which is nuts)

I can't honestly say I would switch to mirrorless..I see the biggest appeal as being able to "re-use" my lenses on a different mount and that's mostly it. That is handy as a spare body option (for the small price of an adapter) erm and that's about it really. If I really want a compact camera to take out for the day I take my erm compact camera (premium compact) I think makers forgot people have hands, you hold and use these cameras you can only get so small. I'll continue to play with ILC models but until makers can really deliver a good range of pancake primes it's really an inferior solution for many shooters.

Just my take..I think the move to mirrorless is a lot more about cutting costs than a revolution some say it is
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pegelli

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2015, 09:27:24 AM »

I have stopped my expectation that there is one camera that's ideal under all circumstances and can meet all my personal needs (and even those are limited)

I have fully embraced mirrorless, both as a small/lightweight system as well as "digital backs" for all kind of heritage glass (heck, even some projector lenses have so much character that you can make nice photo's with them).

But I agree with others it's not a revolution and I still use my DSLR for the cases a mirrorless doesn't cut it or isn't practical. Some find this a pity, but I don't, it's just more kit we can play with, test, abuse and use  ;)
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2015, 10:59:07 AM »

I'm not sure the points being made are sinking it (appreciate views will differ)
Some of the lenses coming out are actually bigger than their equivalent DSLR offerings, it's not me designing the lenses but Fuji. This also applies to Sony too, just about every lens they have for their E mount is heavier and larger than their DSLR counterpart.

I picked up a few X bodies to play around and have fun, and I like them. What gets me is this kind of marketing from Fuji..



It's just a million miles from the truth my camera bag won't be much lighter with Fuji X, only the bodies
One example a fairly popular "day trip lens"
Sony 18-135mm, 76mm x 86mm which is 395g
FUJINON XF18-135mm, 75.7mm x 97.8mm is 490g

« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 11:04:08 AM by barryfitzgerald »
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rdonson

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2015, 01:17:40 PM »


It's just a million miles from the truth my camera bag won't be much lighter with Fuji X, only the bodies
One example a fairly popular "day trip lens"
Sony 18-135mm, 76mm x 86mm which is 395g
FUJINON XF18-135mm, 75.7mm x 97.8mm is 490g


Its not an apples to apple comparison.  Sure, the Sony is lighter but the designs are different.  Is 95g really a deal breaker for you???  Vote with your $$$.  Buy the gear that you think will work best for you.  Hopefully you'll not succumb to the marketing hype from anyone but rather use your own common sense.

Sony
15 elements in 13 groups, including 3 aspheric and 2 ED glass elements

Fuji
16 elements in 12 groups, including 4 aspherical elements and 2 anomalous dispersion lenses
+ weather sealing
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Ron

Remo Nonaz

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2015, 04:05:54 PM »

I find it interesting that this entire thread has missed an important point that I, too, missed for a long time - WYSIWYG. With a mirrorless, if you set your exposure for, say -1EV, your viewfinder darkens by 1EV and you see a dark image. Take the shot and compare the playback with the image in the viewfinder and you will see that the viewfinder and the photo are exactly the same.

Upon learning this, I messed around with it for a while and it is true. What you see in the viewfinder is what you get in your image. You may dial in some EV adjustment to allow for ETTR, but still, what you see is what you get.

When you use an optical viewfinder, you see what the ambient light looks like, but you have no idea what the camera is going to capture. When you are shooting in difficult lighting situations, this is a huge disadvantage. A mirrorless camera essentially renders light meters obsolete. Just use your viewfinder image plus the histogram (which is displayed in real time, in the viewfinder) and you always have the right exposure. You can't do this with an optical viewfinder.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 04:58:59 PM by Remo Nonaz »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2015, 04:44:19 PM »

Its not an apples to apple comparison.  Sure, the Sony is lighter but the designs are different.  Is 95g really a deal breaker for you???  Vote with your $$$.  Buy the gear that you think will work best for you.  Hopefully you'll not succumb to the marketing hype from anyone but rather use your own common sense.

Sony
15 elements in 13 groups, including 3 aspheric and 2 ED glass elements

Fuji
16 elements in 12 groups, including 4 aspherical elements and 2 anomalous dispersion lenses
+ weather sealing


Having shot both I have to report that whilst the Sony lens doesn't have weather sealing it is actually optically the better of the two lenses
In relation to WYSIWYG I'm already there I have the SLT models and I have OVF ones too there is no advantage to be gained here either

Just struck me as odd that half the reason for ILC's is a more compact system, then they come out with "big" lenses for them. Sony's recent batch of E mount lenses follows the same theme. Very odd

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Iluvmycam

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2015, 07:00:54 PM »

I've been playing with ILC's from various makers for a while now, picking up an adapter for my A mount lenses

A few things have struck me spending a bit of time with these types of cameras.
Firstly the "no viewfinder" models are simply not well suited to anything other than a small pancake or possibly "more compact" kit lens. The X-M1 I have is quite good, but using the adapter it was a disaster for camera shake, so I acquired an X-E1 which does have a viewfinder.

This body is better, I also prefer the jpeg output and it's better for using the lenses I have. But I'm also losing quite a bit for a few reasons
1: None of the Fuji bodies have IBIS, and so far no primes are stabilised this isn't the end of the world but it does really hurt things esp for longer focal lengths
2: Fuji are lying through their teeth on their ISO ratings, I did a controlled test v my A Mount bodies and the Fuji bodies are about a stop off, thus ISO 1600 on the A mount bodies is approx ISO 3200 on the Fuji near enough (looking at the actual exposure luminance) once I factor in IBIS I am at a disadvantage using Fuji in lower light levels
3: As soon as you start to mount heavier/longer lenses and plonk a flash on top the body becomes quite unbalanced really not comfortable at all. I do have a few grips for my SLR bodies I do use them if I'm doing this ie flash and lenses or portrait work, if not I take them off either way they are more "comfy"

It's not that I don't like the Fuji's (trying to sell the X-M1 as it's not really needed it's worth next to nothing anyway people can't seem to give them away)
I think the industry has to realise where to really push these cameras and I think they're a backward step in handing for some types of shooting. In the 70's and early 80's the SLR style was one with next to no grip this evolved over time to the current "grip" and body shape for ergonomic reasons I feel. The E mount cameras I've tried have the same problems small grips, the lower end bodies have no VF at all (which is nuts)

I can't honestly say I would switch to mirrorless..I see the biggest appeal as being able to "re-use" my lenses on a different mount and that's mostly it. That is handy as a spare body option (for the small price of an adapter) erm and that's about it really. If I really want a compact camera to take out for the day I take my erm compact camera (premium compact) I think makers forgot people have hands, you hold and use these cameras you can only get so small. I'll continue to play with ILC models but until makers can really deliver a good range of pancake primes it's really an inferior solution for many shooters.

Just my take..I think the move to mirrorless is a lot more about cutting costs than a revolution some say it is

Well, convert a Leica M6 to digital and it is mirroless. Can you get a better pedigree? The big deal with mirrorless is compact footprint. I could not use a dslr for this.

http://danielteolijrlep6.tumblr.com/image/85154193735

Sure you can use your giant dslr for the 'lost princess' But if your a male, can you go around day and night sticking your monster dslr in the face of kids 2 to 3  feet away and not be challenged as a pedophile?

I can cause I shoot mirrorless. And don't forget having to lug your giant dslr on your wrist day and night. Too heavy for me anyway. I seldom use a shoulder strap. I keep my cam in hand at almost all times. I still use a dslr but just for sports or macro, but that is very seldom.

DSLR was too big for the night stealth work like this....all mirrorless.

nsfw

http://dewallenrld.tumblr.com/

I'v been 95% mirrorless for 3 years +...love em! Just wish they made an affordable Japanese Leica knockoff for $2500 and a M43 with manual controls like a shutter speed dial.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 07:12:18 PM by iluvmycam »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2015, 07:15:15 PM »

It is useful to have a smaller body, but not all DSLR's are massive I have both of these cameras
Granted the X-M1 I have is much smaller, but it does not have a viewfinder which is a problem for some types of shooting

The Fuji is a bit smaller the X-E1, and lighter but the other camera isn't that big either. Once you factor in the lens size I don't really save that much camera bag space.
I like being able to fit in an X mount body into the bag (as a third body) if I replaced my set up with X mount only I'd save very little space or weight overall

Not putting it down but I think the size advantages are somewhat overplayed. If I were shooting Canon then it might be more obvious (their lenses are bigger generally)
Some of the lenses I have are impossibly small the Minolta 24-105mm F3.5-F4.5 71 x 69 mm and 395g, and it's a full frame lens. Maybe Fuji and Sony should hire some ex Minolta lens designers  :o

Here compared to the Canon
http://gattos.exblog.jp/9087560

Granted not sealed and slightly slower, but an incredible achievement in size reduction
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armand

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2015, 09:59:21 PM »

The weight advantage is in the lower focal lengths.

Lately Fuji is more focused on the quality than size; if you compare to the top DSLR lenses which the latest releases are supposed to replace they still have a size advantage but it's decreasing.
It's ok as they offer the light alternative also but they need to work more on ergonomics (bigger grip) and focus if they really want to compete.


The m43 seems to keep a larger advantage in the telephoto range also although I didn't look too much as I don't have one and I might get tempted (again).

MarkL

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2015, 07:54:36 AM »

Right now? There are minimal tangible benefits over an slr other than weight/size which is why most use them as a second camera to an slr system. The systems are still expensive too.

The benefits though in the future are promising: on chip focus points covering more of the frame, focus peaking, constant focus tracking, live histograms/exposure preview etc. these would only increase with electronic shutters too.

There is little question the slr will die but we are looking at highly evolved (slr) vs new tech (mirorless)
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JV

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2015, 12:01:39 PM »

It's just a million miles from the truth my camera bag won't be much lighter with Fuji X, only the bodies
One example a fairly popular "day trip lens"
Sony 18-135mm, 76mm x 86mm which is 395g
FUJINON XF18-135mm, 75.7mm x 97.8mm is 490g

The Fuji is really a 27-206mm equivalent.  I am not sure you can really compare...

The weight advantage is in the lower focal lengths.

I would tend to agree here.

I have Fuji 4 primes (14, 23, 35 and 56mm) and as far as weight, size and image quality goes it is all good in my book.

i don't tend to buy zooms or long lenses but some of the ones I have seen look very unbalanced on such a small body.

The systems are still expensive too.

A6000 with 2 kit zooms for $700-800, that's not too bad...

I don't believe Fuji or Olympus will be able to maintain their current prices.

I am sure Sony will eventually put out a FF entry-level system for around $1K, putting Fuji and Olympus under pressure.


« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 01:02:33 PM by JV »
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Rand47

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2015, 06:34:56 PM »

I think that mirrorless is a sort of revolution or at least the evolutionary equivalent to the Cambrian explosion.  ;D  You know, punctuated equilibrium and all that.

I think the move to on-sensor AF is revolutionary.   And while it isn't yet up to good DSLR standards in terms of speed, it is in many ways more accurate overall than other more conventional systems when it locks focus.

I don't buy, however, the whole WYSIWYG argument via the EVF.  Even the best EVF is a horror outdoors in daylight.  Try WYSIWYG-ing to open up the horribly blocked-up shadows in the EVF, using your exposure or comp., and see what the file looks like. In this regard, EVF/mirrorless has a LONG way to go, IMO.  It is good enough to "tolerate and work around" but nothing more.  And I don't think having the plethora of on-screen information compensates a bit - in fact I often find myself turning it all off so that I can see "what's out there" enough to make a decent composition.

What I can say is this, even with "big lenses" on my Fuji X-T1 (e.g. the 10-24 and 40-150) the direct comparison in weight and bulk in "angle of view" equivalent for my FF system yields a HUGE difference that "pictures of them side by side" does nothing to illustrate.  The FF is massive in-hand and very much bulkier and heavier.

And, I just completed a comparison test of my 20+ MP FF gear against the Fuji X-T1 in print sizes up to 17x25 (as large as I usually print w/o having stitched frames) and the Fuji is easily the equivalent and in some instances better in tonal transition and detail rendering. 

And, I have from 15mm to 320mm equivalent range in lenses, and two bodies w/ battery grips in one small backpack style bag.  It isn't "light" but it is a heck-of-a-lot-lighter and way less bulky than the two bags required to contain my equivalent FF system with only one body.

Horses for courses, of course.

And, finally, these days when I need the "big gun" in terms of resolution and detail rendering, I reach for one my three stupid little Sigma DP Merrill cameras - which kick butt on both the APS-C system and the FF system (assuming that I'm using them like mini tech cameras  - SLOW and deliberate).

It is a wonderful world we're living in as far as technology goes.  I'm glad I've lived long enough to play in it.

Rand
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Rand Scott Adams

chez

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2015, 07:29:21 PM »

I think that mirrorless is a sort of revolution or at least the evolutionary equivalent to the Cambrian explosion.  ;D  You know, punctuated equilibrium and all that.

I think the move to on-sensor AF is revolutionary.   And while it isn't yet up to good DSLR standards in terms of speed, it is in many ways more accurate overall than other more conventional systems when it locks focus.

I don't buy, however, the whole WYSIWYG argument via the EVF.  Even the best EVF is a horror outdoors in daylight.  Try WYSIWYG-ing to open up the horribly blocked-up shadows in the EVF, using your exposure or comp., and see what the file looks like. In this regard, EVF/mirrorless has a LONG way to go, IMO.  It is good enough to "tolerate and work around" but nothing more.  And I don't think having the plethora of on-screen information compensates a bit - in fact I often find myself turning it all off so that I can see "what's out there" enough to make a decent composition.

What I can say is this, even with "big lenses" on my Fuji X-T1 (e.g. the 10-24 and 40-150) the direct comparison in weight and bulk in "angle of view" equivalent for my FF system yields a HUGE difference that "pictures of them side by side" does nothing to illustrate.  The FF is massive in-hand and very much bulkier and heavier.

And, I just completed a comparison test of my 20+ MP FF gear against the Fuji X-T1 in print sizes up to 17x25 (as large as I usually print w/o having stitched frames) and the Fuji is easily the equivalent and in some instances better in tonal transition and detail rendering. 

And, I have from 15mm to 320mm equivalent range in lenses, and two bodies w/ battery grips in one small backpack style bag.  It isn't "light" but it is a heck-of-a-lot-lighter and way less bulky than the two bags required to contain my equivalent FF system with only one body.

Horses for courses, of course.

And, finally, these days when I need the "big gun" in terms of resolution and detail rendering, I reach for one my three stupid little Sigma DP Merrill cameras - which kick butt on both the APS-C system and the FF system (assuming that I'm using them like mini tech cameras  - SLOW and deliberate).

It is a wonderful world we're living in as far as technology goes.  I'm glad I've lived long enough to play in it.

Rand

I just did a bunch of shooting in fog with some sunlight coming in and out. Challenging light conditions. Used the EVF along with exposure compensation and it was a breeze to see and get the exposures I wanted. For me, I find the EVF a revolution to use compared to the OVF. As far as being hard to see...guess what, I cannot see the OVF in bright sun with my 5D2. I had to get an attachment which allows me to view the entire viewfinder in sunlight. I wear glasses, so that might be the cause.
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2015, 07:52:04 AM »

The EVF's I've used can be hard to see in harsh lighting esp strong back-lighting. I have adapted to a degree with that though I feel the need to use an OVF to get that "it's real" feel at times.

Just to clarify I'm not having a dig at the ILC concept but there are drawbacks, and for me I don't see it as a desirable alternative to my current set up. It is useful to have a body in the bag, it's a bit different and I can fit one in there. If I replaced my set up, which can't really be done as Fuji don't have the lens range I would save a bit of space on bodies, but next to none weight and size wise with lenses.

For me it's a simple pros and cons for ILC and the disadvantages counter the advantages. The smaller bodies are offset with low battery life, less comfortable handling (esp with a flash mounted or heavier lenses) any of the EVF advantages are non existent as I'm using EVF's on the SLT Bodies. I lose a bit of light, but I gain IBIS making all my lenses even the primes stabilised that is a very significant factor to me, and unless Fuji can offer IBIS I wouldn't consider it viable as a replacement. It's fun to use and with an adapter I have another place to put my lenses. I would point out I've used newer bodies too the X-T1 is very good and I like it, but not enough to consider dumping my A Mount stuff. If you were using quite a few of the smaller primes and didn't need a broad range of longer lenses then the Fuji would be fine. Once you start using faster zooms that size point evaporates mostly
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JV

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2015, 10:09:07 AM »

Just to clarify I'm not having a dig at the ILC concept but there are drawbacks, and for me I don't see it as a desirable alternative to my current set up.

Fair enough.  Along the same lines:
http://inmybag.net/martin-gillman-2/
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Mike D. B.

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2015, 02:37:58 PM »

Fair enough.  Along the same lines:
http://inmybag.net/martin-gillman-2/
Well, he writes a great deal but doesn't say much.  Doesn't state anything substantial.  I can't agree with him, that I'd need a dozen or more batteries for "a gig" (which is undefined.  I've shot a whole weekend with my X-T1 using three batteries.  My Canon 5D would require two - so what?  I also can't agree, that the two (very generic comparison) are basically the same size with only a slight weight difference.  I also notice a great difference when shooting on the street - with my X-T1 or X-Pro1, people aren't as intimidated as with the 5D.

I think it boils down to what a photographer enjoys personally and I'd hate to group people into D-SLR or Mirrorless users and judge them.  Whatever floats your boat!

pegelli

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2015, 02:51:35 PM »

I think it boils down to what a photographer enjoys personally and I'd hate to group people into D-SLR or Mirrorless users and judge them.  Whatever floats your boat!
Well said Mike, which is why I'm using both depending on what I want to do. I'm really convinced there is not a "one size fits all" (where "all" can stand for photographers as well as situations they might encounter). I just know that adding a mirrorless in your bag opens options that you don't have with a DSLR, but the reverse is also true, if you throw out your DSLR you're going to miss opportunities that are very hard to get with a mirrorless.
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pieter, aka pegelli

rdonson

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2015, 09:27:11 PM »

Nicely said, Mike.

Since acquiring my X-T1 and some XF lenses my Canon DSLRs have been relegated to high speed sports where AIServo and 2 CPUs are necessary and times when I need my long L lenses and a very fast AF.  If nothing changes in Canonland before Fuji releases their 100-400 I may end up selling all my Canon DSLRs and lenses.  No, I'm not interested in Canon's 50 MP sensors.

I truly like my X-T1's image quality, handling, size, weight and the ergonomics.  My only wish at this point is that Fuji would somehow find a way to give me the functionality I get on the Canons with back button focusing.

edit:  For me, my Fuji X-T1 beats my Canons in IQ and I believe it may be the lack of a AA filter.  The Fuji non-Bayer sensor provides better color and sharpness IMHO.  Yes, there are endless arguments about which RAW converter does the best job but in the end the final image is still better than what I can get with my Canons. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 08:10:59 AM by rdonson »
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Mike D. B.

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Re: I'm starting to wonder if "mirrorless" is all it's hyped up to be
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2015, 02:01:49 PM »

If nothing changes in Canonland before Fuji releases their 100-400 I may end up selling all my Canon DSLRs and lenses.
Ron, I'm in the same situation.  I've given myself another few months to decide.  I've got four primes, need to pick up four more lenses, then I'll basically have a much smaller and lighter outfit than my Canon gear.  And the X-T1 is more fun to use!  Sadly, the 120 macro won't be released until next year and those photos I saw (at pdreview) don't show a tripod mount.  And probably no manufacturer will ever build a lens similar to Canon's MPE 65mm.

But I'll be able to live with the changes.  I've got an old Minolta MD bellows, some MD lenses and a Novoflex adapter which give decent macro results - while being awkward to use.  Wow, I really used those bellows daily, years ago!
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