HP Blues...i mean reds

[AvailableLight]

Hello all, this is my first post and unfortunately it is a tale of woe. Let me explain.

I recently purchased a HP Z5200, in fact 2 the other for a friend who is very happy with it after the repairs when it arrived DOA, it now suits her fine.

The problem began to reveal itself almost right away, due in part to the nature of my work at the moment which is macro photography of bird feathers in the parrot family. At this point you  might already be aware of what's coming as i have found out information on this very subject right here on the forum, post-printer purchase of course.

The issue is REDS, as in the printer fails miserably to produce presentable results on matte paper. Below is the section of the image i am trying to reproduce and just happened to be what i used for the first print on my new printer, how disappointing i cant tell you.

Some back-story. I started to produce large prints a couple of years ago on a friends Epson 9600, the endless cleaning and flushing of expensive ink became a losing battle and a case of diminishing returns  i only stuck with for as long due to the fact that 24 x 36" prints looked stunning. After the second head clogged to the point even a ultrasonic clean did nothing to solve i decided it was time for a new printer. I did not go for a large format right away as my Epson 3880 is still capable of 13 x 19" prints which also look stunning, especially as i had switched recently to a better matte paper the Epson hot press bright white.

When i heard one day that HP's Z line of printers have an auto cleaning cycle, user replaceable inexpensive heads and a built in spectrophotometer i was intrigued, i then discovered a company called Lexjet had a sale on them, asking the advice of the sales rep i was told i would be happy with the results of the Z5200 which would equal my Epson 9600 and 3880 using matte paper. Since i have had this issue a group of Lexjet's in house HP reps have come to the same conclusion i did, which took them a month, that this printer goes not have the gamut to produce the saturation and detail of red in particular on matte paper.

I have been flat refused by HP and Lexjet to a replacement printer, the Z3200 being the obvious choice due to the addition of a chromatic red in the ink set, which i would have bought if i had been advised to do so or if i had discovered this particular fact that has been posted around on forums before, unfortunately i had only read some online reviews which praised it.

The reason for this post is to ask advice on if i have any rights as a consumer to a refund or replacement that as of now i am being denied.

Just to recap the equipment used.

Canon 5d MkII
Canon M-PE65 macro lens.
Canon ring-flash.
iMac
Paper: Epson Hot Press Bright White
Epson 9600 (good results, when it worked)
Epson 3880 (good results now)
HP Z5200 (poor reds on matte paper, saturation not as good as Epson (which does not have a dedicated red either) Without saturation adjustment layer to bring reds into gamut saturation might be tolerable but there is no detail, dialing back saturation to bring reds into gamut means a reduction by 30 then detail is present but reds look dull and lifeless)

I ave tried every calibration combination i can think of during the profiling no of which worked altogether. Pop in some satin paper that came with the printer and problems disappear pretty much (although the epson would probably be better still.) But i print on matte exclusively and mentioned such at the time of purchase.

I've been told my only recourse is to sell it privately which i would rather not have to go through but might be my only option. If anyone here is interested in a great printer for glossy/satin medium this will not disappoint, if you print on matte stay away from this one.

[howardm]

consumer protection laws vary from state to state so you *really* would want to chat w/ some form of legal professional.

Sorry to hear your tale of woe but honestly, if it was me, I would have had lexjet or whatever vendor print up a couple of
sample representative images before I committed to purchase.  If they aren't willing to do that, I'd find another vendor.

[Mark Lindquist]

Wow - sorry to hear this.  The reds look almost orangey.

Can you say who the Lexjet rep was who sold you the 5200?

In terms of legal issues, you might just be better off to sell your X5200 and get another printer (HP Z3200ps) from another company or HP directly.

I'd very much like to know who at LexJet did this.  But yeah, you might have done your homework better, first.

[AvailableLight]

Yes i realize now i should have asked for proof rather than take somebodies word for it. The sales rep was a Mr. Josh Mott and although he has been helpful in diagnosing the issue fully he has not ultimately helped me, since he suggested the printer in the first place and is not offering to make right on the matter.

So is the consensus i should pursue this matter legally rather than resell privately? I guess it all depends on NY state law if i am protected in anyway.

[Ernst Dinkla]

It is the same ink set the HP B9180 uses(d), was deficient red an issue for that printer?
True it does not have the Chromatic Red of the Z3200 model that improved the gamut of that printer compared to the Z3100 gamut. Both 11 ink + GE systems.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

[Jager]

You could consult an attorney if you like, but I doubt you have any legal recourse.  It doesn't sound like your printer was grossly misrepresented or has any kind of major defect.  You were talking to a salesman.  Of course they were going to say it will do what you needed it to.  That's what they do.  It's the old buyer beware thing.  And in the case of professional pigment printers it's rather a case of choose your poison.  If there was a model out there that did everything right and nothing wrong... we'd all be using it.  Alas.

I'd sell the printer and move on.

[Mark Lindquist]

iMac
Paper: Epson Hot Press Bright White
Epson 9600 (good results, when it worked)
Epson 3880 (good results now)
HP Z5200 (poor reds on matte paper, saturation not as good as Epson (which does not have a dedicated red either) Without saturation adjustment layer to bring reds into gamut saturation might be tolerable but there is no detail, dialing back saturation to bring reds into gamut means a reduction by 30 then detail is present but reds look dull and lifeless)

I ave tried every calibration combination i can think of during the profiling no of which worked altogether. Pop in some satin paper that came with the printer and problems disappear pretty much (although the epson would probably be better still.) But i print on matte exclusively and mentioned such at the time of purchase.

Actually, Ernst has a good point.  It has caused me to think about this.

So if you are using Epson Hot Press Bright White on this printer it could be potentially a paper issue with these inks.

Assuming you have done the following:

Calibrated your monitor (newly)

Created a custom profile for the paper 
(I would personally make a custom profile for your Matte paper using "Fine Art Paper More Ink" as a preset base)

Soft-proofed your image (newly, using the paper profile)

If the Epson Hot Press Bright White doesn't work after all this, then try another paper, such as Canson BFK Rives.

For testing purposes, you could try Breathing Color Elegance Velvet - it's pretty much a bullet proof paper for this kind of stuff.

The monitor profile and the paper custom profile must be in sync.

Try a few different OTHER matte papers.  Just because you have EpsonHPBW doesn't mean you HAVE to use it.
If you must use Epson Matte - try experimenting with Epson Ultra Smooth Fine Art.

Keep experimenting and find out what paper the printer likes.  There should be something.

Look at Canson, Hahnemuhl, Breathing Color. 

If after all this, and you still can't get your reds, then sell and move on.

FWIW / YMMV

[Phil Indeblanc]

I think you should try Mark's suggestion of using MoreInk as new profile on various paper combos, as I have seen some differences. I didn't test for red, but I did notice a difference in my BW prints on my z32. I know yours being a different machine, yet, this last try may get you noticeable difference. It's worth trying just to see.

I wish more stores had a return policy, as you say you noticed it right away.

How long did you have it for?
I'm surprised Lexjet wouldn't work with you. Buying from them you pay for some service. Maybe they were eager to just move those models? You suggest that somehow you got mislead.
Even cars in some states have a 3 day cool off period.

[hugowolf]

... my Epson 3880 is still capable of 13 x 19" prints which also look stunning, especially as i had switched recently to a better matte paper the Epson hot press bright white...

The Epson 3880 is quite capable of 17" x 37" prints, if you are willing to cut down rolls. Canson Rag Photographique is availalbe in 24" x 36" sheets, which cut down nicely to two 17" x 24" sheets, with little waste. It isn't a bright white; it doesn't contain OBAs, but it is whiter than Epson hot and cold pressed natural papers. Also, Moab have some papers available in A2. (Not 24" x 36", but a lot bigger than 13" x 19").

Some thoughts on the HP:

Is there a RIP that might get better reds for you? Is there another matte paper that could get better reds? Otherwise, I would try reprofiling the paper: does whatever you are using for profiling allow you to optimize using an image or specific patches?

Brian A

[Mark Lindquist]

Some thoughts on the HP:

Is there a RIP that might get better reds for you? Is there another matte paper that could get better reds? Otherwise, I would try reprofiling the paper: does whatever you are using for profiling allow you to optimize using an image or specific patches?

Brian A

The HP printer has an embedded spectrophotometer in it.  i1 pro system.  It's fully capable of making pro level ICC custom profiles.

[AvailableLight]

Yes, i realize there could be a possible paper out there that could be better, although HP tried it on theirs and it's not great either. As fars as RIP's go i'm not knowledgeable enough in that area as i have only ever used Photoshop and Aperture with the manufacturer's icc profiles before this printer which as mentioned has a built-in spectrophotometer and can create it's own profiles for third party papers, a selling point to me who imagined it would simply provide the flexibility to use Epson HPBW with little to no Photoshop processing.

Of course i profiled the hell out of that image with every kinda combination of paper type setting including more ink settings, what you could not see in the section of the image i posted is a black feather that has all sorts of shadow detail in it, if i got the reds better by using the "wrong" paper type during the icc profiling and scanning then the black feather was just that, black without shadow detail.

This led me to believe that if it was possible to improve the red to within acceptable standards (still not Epson standards) then with enough layer adjustments i  i might be able to get a balanced print. That is a lot of work though and would probably have to be repeated for each image.

So I spoke to the consumer protection agency and they said i should have grounds for a formal complaint in which they will get in touch with Lexjet on my behalf, using that i called Lexjet and explained where i would be going with this if they were unwilling to provide me with a printer that would equal the description by my sales rep, that it is that it would produce results equal to my Epson 9600. This was met with the response that i could be offered a deal on whatever printer works out for me after some testing using my image that would likely include a full set of inks.

This isn't a bad deal however it still leaves me to sell the printer privately which can be tricky given the size and cost of shipping, which narrows the market to local pickup, itself not easy as i have three flights of stairs to negotiate.

So given that i could be represented, where do you think that route would take me and how long would it be? I understand these are more questions for a lawyer but at the moment i have not chosen to take that path and am hoping an inquiry will from the CPA will have some effect, although my notifying them didn't change much.

[Conner999]

If you've exhausted all paper/profiling options to the level you're willing/able, I'd cut my losses, sell and move on. That said, one last option worth exploring would be to:

1. Ask Lexjet to collect the printer and sell on consignment. Don't know if they do this or not, but there's nothing wrong with printer, they have the crew to collect and facilities to deliver - and they make a $ on it.  Someone gets a lower priced 'demo' printer, they make some $, keep a customer and restore some goodwill (albeit for a price), save a possible CPA/legal hassle, and you avoid a PITA private sale.

If you sell privately, you won't likely be saying nice things about Lexjet in process and may take your $$ elsewhere when unit sold. Consider any commission given to them to be a price well paid for avoiding 101 tire-kickers.

2. Negotiate a deal on a new printer from them after testing the living #$%^ out of the top options with a known tricky print.

I would hazard that any CPA or legal recourse won't go far - printer works fine, but color performance is just not like you were led to believe.  That last part is also open to so much "He said, she said, he understood, I meant" it's not even funny. Any costs you incur to even try and get satisfaction would likely not make the approach viable. The process may also see Lexjet start suggesting 1001 different options of profiling/papers all over again as whatever body contacts them suggest they work with you to 'fix the issue". The $$ and lost time will just start to pile up and you'll be no further along.

BUT if Lexjet stonewalls, I'd suggest sell privately ASAP, readily take $$ elsewhere and not be shy about my feelings on LJ.

Everyone makes selling/buying mistakes but unlike with a camera or strobe, with almost any 'pro' printer, the resale options to correct a boo-boo are almost prohibitive for private individuals due packing & shipping costs.  That is something reputable 'customer service centric' pro printer vendors need to be conscious of when doing the sale dance.

[Justan]

a black feather that has all sorts of shadow detail in it, if i got the reds better by using the "wrong" paper type during the icc profiling and scanning then the black feather was just that, black without shadow detail.

Your comment above makes me wonder if you have calibrated your monitor(s) and also if you do any post processing on your work? I don’t know as I’m not there, but this may be an issue that can be solved by a monitor that is accurate for brightness and also color balance, plus some tweaking of the image by way of post processing. It’s rare that a quality printer will cause a notable lack of detail in shadow areas unless the source material also lacks that detail. It’s also possible that the color balance and saturation levels in the images could be adjusted to produce more likable results on the print.

On the possibility that you are not familiar with what can be produced by post processing, I’m sure you can find some here that are in the NYC area who can provide some consultation with that.

If you paid for the printer with AMEX, contact them as they generally support customers like no one else.

If all else has been tried and failed and you need to move on, at some point you’ll need to accept cutting your losses in the name of the greater goals.

[Mark Lindquist]

Another thought.  You mentioned that the other printer arrived DOA - the one that your friend got.

Just out of curiosity, have you done a Print Head Diagnostic Image?

Try this - use a piece of your glossy paper and go into the front panel menu and find Diagnostic Print.

Make a diagnostic print and see if your red printhead is functioning correctly.  There is conceivably a possibility that it could be clogged or screwed up.

Just another straw to grasp at.

Never know.

[dhodson60]

I wonder if maybe there is something else going on.  I have an Hp B9180 that up until Christmas was working fine.  Then all of a sudden, the reds in my test image took on a distinct orange colour (nothing in my workflow changed and the image prints fine on my Epson 3880).

Internet searches show others had this same issue but none of them were ever resolved from what I could see.  I tried to get some response from Hp but that didn't get me anywhere either.  There's an Hp B9180 user group on Yahoo that I joined and found others with the same problem.  Since the B9180 has been discontinued, most of them just gave up and moved on.  I went through a couple of print head changes and lots of ink but in the end put it in the closet and bought another 3880 since I needed a functioning printer.

You're fortunate in that you have access to some Hp reps.  Maybe one of them can shed some light on what should be a known issue.  Since mine was a sudden change to a printer that was previously working fine, I'd have to disagree on the gamut challenges some have mentioned.  Something happened and I'd love to know if there's a fix for it.  Please post if you find something out.

Thanks
Dave