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Author Topic: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked  (Read 81668 times)

Ken R

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50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« on: January 30, 2015, 06:40:47 pm »

I know, they are not medium format digital cameras but they get into their high resolution realm. No word on who makes the sensor. The 5DR has no AA filter. More specs HERE
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tom b

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2015, 07:01:30 pm »

Thread already started here.

cheers,
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Tom Brown

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2015, 07:31:43 pm »

Thats a huge jump from what they previously had.  I seriously wonder how well, or not well, their lenses will be able to resolve light for pixels that small. 
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2015, 07:46:19 pm »

Hi,

We had 3.8 micron pixels for long as we had 3.8 micron technology in APS-C sensors.

Decent quality lenses will resolve fine at 3.8 microns. Detail contrast will be lower than at 4.8 microns (36MP). Many lenses will not be sharp in the corners.

50 MP cameras will be critical regarding alignment sensor, AF and lens.

Canon made a recent overhaul of their lens line.

Any decent lens will produce a sharper image with a 50 MP sensor than with an 24 or 36 MP sensor. Aliasing will be reduced and also risk for moiré. Also, the image will respond better to sharpening.

Best regards
Erik

Thats a huge jump from what they previously had.  I seriously wonder how well, or not well, their lenses will be able to resolve light for pixels that small. 
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ndevlin

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2015, 10:18:43 pm »

I'm sure they'll sell a zillion of them.  I'm equally sure I don't care. 

16MPs has proven nowhere as good in APS-C as in 35mm, 24MPs in APS-C has proven nowhere near as good as 24MPs in 35mm.   And so it goes.

A lot of Canon people will be happy.  My dealer friends will be relieved to have a new product to move. The measurebators will be over the moon.

All is well with the world.

- N.
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eronald

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2015, 10:27:52 pm »

I'm sure they'll sell a zillion of them.  I'm equally sure I don't care. 

The measurebators will be over the moon.

All is well with the world.

- N.

Looks like the debatetators have a headstart on the measurebators. :)

Edmund
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NancyP

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2015, 10:57:04 pm »

I want an upgrade on my brain. Who cares about MP. I want TeraNeurons!
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lowep

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2015, 11:24:44 pm »

I want an upgrade on my brain. Who cares about MP. I want TeraNeurons!

I hope one day I can figure out how to use the 3 pounds of meat I already have in my head  ;D
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jduncan

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2015, 07:27:38 pm »

Hi,

It seems that it will be a fantastic camera (in paper) with a modern autofocus system, something that we don't have on the nikon side (the D810 autofocus is adecuate, so is the D750 the software is very good but the number of  points in general and  cross type points in particular is of the D3 generation).

The other news will be that state of the art medium format and state of the art DSLR will have similar resolution. The horizontal resolution of the DSLR will be better in theory than the MF cameras.
The question will be the lenses, MF stress the lenses far less for the same resolution.

The cost of the tiny sensor on the   cmos cameras is now fully  shown.
The not here comment is : If the sensor is from Sony, Nikon could be in a lot of trouble, something similar to Hasselblad when PhaseOne succeed in blocking hasselblad access to the 80MP sensor.

Back to medium format: If the dynamic range is there,  this will make medium format outside the  645z even more difficult to justify.

Best regards,
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2015, 08:33:57 pm »

Back to medium format: If the dynamic range is there,  this will make medium format outside the  645z even more difficult to justify.

I am not sure it changes the game that much compared to what was already available (D810/a7r) in terms of "threat" for MF. 36 sharp megapixels are already enough for most applications and if they aren't chances are that 50mp won't be enough either.

What matters more is indeed DR and the quality/look of the lenses relative to sensor size.

In other words, I don't see that many people interested in MF re-consider because Canon releases a 50mp sensor. Most of the MF users who wanted to downsize already own a D810, those who didn't still won't.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 08:35:32 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2015, 08:57:01 pm »

Back to medium format: If the dynamic range is there,  this will make medium format outside the  645z even more difficult to justify.

This has been said every time a higher res dSLR camera has been released. Anyone on this forum for a long enough time will recall it from the release of at least a dozen cameras over the year. It fundamentally misunderstands what medium format is and does; pixels and dr are just two of the many many reasons why our clients choose medium format over a 35mm alternative.

Team Phase One has been profitable and growing since the financial crises. In my evaluation it's not "despite" the 5DII, D800, A7R, 645D, 645Z etc, but because of them. Anytime a product has been released that gets people talking about, thinking about, and evaluating image quality Team Phase One has benefited.

If this camera has broad compatibility with technical cameras and view cameras, syncs up to 1/1600th, offers a waist level viewfinder, has an optical viewfinder as large and bright as a full frame 645 body, offers vertical composition without rotating the camera, provides instant focus mask on-LCD, customizable exposure warning, automatic correction of horizon and perspective based on the internal levels, a color look developed via close collaboration between the hardware and software team, and comes with a suite of lenses already proven to provide fantastic quality, at any aperture, at 80mp (let alone 50mp)... then maybe it will threaten medium format.

Otherwise it's just another 35mm SLR with a similar resolution to one of the lower end medium format options on the market. Surely a great camera for many applications, and undoubtedly a very good value for the dollar, but, fundamentally, still just another 35mm SLR.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 09:01:23 pm by Doug Peterson »
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eronald

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2015, 09:32:22 pm »


Doug,

 There should be a dealer for hi-rez off the shelf dSLR stuff.
 Why don't you become that dealer?
 As you very cogently point out, there may be some overlap, but not real competition between these two worlds.

Edmund

This has been said every time a higher res dSLR camera has been released. Anyone on this forum for a long enough time will recall it from the release of at least a dozen cameras over the year. It fundamentally misunderstands what medium format is and does; pixels and dr are just two of the many many reasons why our clients choose medium format over a 35mm alternative.

Team Phase One has been profitable and growing since the financial crises. In my evaluation it's not "despite" the 5DII, D800, A7R, 645D, 645Z etc, but because of them. Anytime a product has been released that gets people talking about, thinking about, and evaluating image quality Team Phase One has benefited.

If this camera has broad compatibility with technical cameras and view cameras, syncs up to 1/1600th, offers a waist level viewfinder, has an optical viewfinder as large and bright as a full frame 645 body, offers vertical composition without rotating the camera, provides instant focus mask on-LCD, customizable exposure warning, automatic correction of horizon and perspective based on the internal levels, a color look developed via close collaboration between the hardware and software team, and comes with a suite of lenses already proven to provide fantastic quality, at any aperture, at 80mp (let alone 50mp)... then maybe it will threaten medium format.

Otherwise it's just another 35mm SLR with a similar resolution to one of the lower end medium format options on the market. Surely a great camera for many applications, and undoubtedly a very good value for the dollar, but, fundamentally, still just another 35mm SLR.
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Joe Towner

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 01:07:00 am »

Can't wait to see what Sony does to follow up the 50mp 33x44 sensor, or Dalsa with the 36x48.

Technology waits for no one, and there are lots of really smart people working to push the edge.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2015, 02:07:02 am »

Hi,

I would agree that with higher resolution FF135 will go deeper in MFD territory, but MFD is not standing still.

Sony has been making sensors for Nikon for many years, and they will happily sell sensors to anyone paying enough.

As you know, Sony is making sensors know for Pentax, Hasselblad and Team Phase One. Those sensors could also benefit from the same pixel shrink we have seen on the new 50 MP sensors.

The pixel size on the 50 MP sensors is the same as on 24MP APS-C (+/- 0.2 microns), what I have seen is that pixel size taking many lenses to the limit but giving very good rendition.

If Sony will be making them in larger sizes is probably dependent on market size and priorities. Upscaling a 50 MP sensor to 44x33 would give something like 84 MP.

Where Dalsa is going, it is hard to know. It is possible they will make competitive CMOS sensors for MFD, or continue with CCD.

Best regards
Erik


Hi,

It seems that it will be a fantastic camera (in paper) with a modern autofocus system, something that we don't have on the nikon side (the D810 autofocus is adecuate, so is the D750 the software is very good but the number of  points in general and  cross type points in particular is of the D3 generation).

The other news will be that state of the art medium format and state of the art DSLR will have similar resolution. The horizontal resolution of the DSLR will be better in theory than the MF cameras.
The question will be the lenses, MF stress the lenses far less for the same resolution.

The cost of the tiny sensor on the   cmos cameras is now fully  shown.
The not here comment is : If the sensor is from Sony, Nikon could be in a lot of trouble, something similar to Hasselblad when PhaseOne succeed in blocking hasselblad access to the 80MP sensor.

Back to medium format: If the dynamic range is there,  this will make medium format outside the  645z even more difficult to justify.

Best regards,

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torger

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2015, 02:54:22 am »

High resolution DSLRs has increased the interest in high resolution photography in general, and that is not all bad for medium format. As long as MFD keeps up holds a suitable distance it will be no problem.

The costs evens out too a bit I think, as you'd need Otus type of lenses to get MF-like resolving power.

There will be the category of photographers that see no meaning to upgrade to MFD as 135 can offer so high resolution these days, those are permanently lost I think, but that's only one category.

I think it will be important for MFD to "be different" not only in resolution, so to make sure the tech camera genre thrives is an important thing as I think that has a stronger attraction to the increasingly important group of enthusiast photographers.

I have a Canon system, but for me as a tech camera photographer and a large format-style of shooting (movements etc) the 50MP Canon cannot replace my current Linhof/Hassy combo, even if their sensor is less noisy than my Kodak CCD, which we don't know yet by the way... and DR is not what I desire the most in my style of shooting by the way. Even more megapixels would be nice... :-)
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torger

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2015, 03:07:16 am »

Can't wait to see what Sony does to follow up the 50mp 33x44 sensor, or Dalsa with the 36x48.

Technology waits for no one, and there are lots of really smart people working to push the edge.

I'm not sure how much Dalsa care about MFD, as the same CCD technology are used in many other applications too. I'd guess that for that sensor size it's more important to them to make an all-around technology useful in many applications than go head-to-head and try to outperform Sony sensors.

Manufacturing technology goes forwards though, hopefully it's getting easier and easier to make a large version of a smaller chip, so you can make small volumes without much overhead cost, that would be great for MFD. Then we might see sensors from say Samsung in the future, their sensors are starting to show in the smaller formats...
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Ken R

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2015, 09:14:55 am »

IMHO the Nikon D810 has been the first camera to really "challenge" medium format in regards to color depth and dynamic range and overall feel of the files. The D800/D800E got close but still color on the D800 was off IMHO and while the D800E was/is better something was still "off". The D810 files are very similar in feel to the Sony 50mm CMOS MF sensor files. (judging from the files I have been able to get a hold of and play with).

But I agree, a 35mm DSLR is a 35mm DSLR no matter how you slice it. Each format contributes to image characteristics that go beyond pixel quality. A lot of it has to do with sensor size and optics. I mean, I don't know anyone that shoots with a bare sensor!

I absolutely love the look of the larger sensors ,like the 60mp one in the IQ160 I have, specially when shooting portraits wide open and even landscapes at f8-f11. Just the look and feel of the image is different (including color). It is not always about the technical image characteristics.

Although it wouldn't be a bad thing if the new 5DS's have a Sony sensor inside I hope Canon can whip out a sensor that offers something different. It would be kinda sad if suddenly most high end cameras come out with a similar or equal sensor. Nice to have different options. 
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jduncan

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2015, 11:57:22 am »

This has been said every time a higher res dSLR camera has been released. Anyone on this forum for a long enough time will recall it from the release of at least a dozen cameras over the year. It fundamentally misunderstands what medium format is and does; pixels and dr are just two of the many many reasons why our clients choose medium format over a 35mm alternative.

Team Phase One has been profitable and growing since the financial crises. In my evaluation it's not "despite" the 5DII, D800, A7R, 645D, 645Z etc, but because of them. Anytime a product has been released that gets people talking about, thinking about, and evaluating image quality Team Phase One has benefited.

If this camera has broad compatibility with technical cameras and view cameras, syncs up to 1/1600th, offers a waist level viewfinder, has an optical viewfinder as large and bright as a full frame 645 body, offers vertical composition without rotating the camera, provides instant focus mask on-LCD, customizable exposure warning, automatic correction of horizon and perspective based on the internal levels, a color look developed via close collaboration between the hardware and software team, and comes with a suite of lenses already proven to provide fantastic quality, at any aperture, at 80mp (let alone 50mp)... then maybe it will threaten medium format.

Otherwise it's just another 35mm SLR with a similar resolution to one of the lower end medium format options on the market. Surely a great camera for many applications, and undoubtedly a very good value for the dollar, but, fundamentally, still just another 35mm SLR.

I understand that this is a sensitive topic for you,but let me clarify that:

1. I never talked about this when the D3x was released.

2. I am saying that that it will be remove one justification, if the Dynamic range is there. The logic is pretty straightforward: Can people justify MF? of course they can[1]. but they will have one justification less.

3. MF use to have far more dynamic range and resolution than DSLRs in the olden days. Later, MF no longer had a dynamic range advantage (MF vendors were able to keep some people unaware, until the CMOS sensor was released), now DSLR are matching resolution.

4. I agree that, if medium format keeps an advantage on image quality, the current developments will help MF grow. Amateurs  and even some professionals will want to differentiate themselves from  the mirror-less commodities.

5. Because of volume,MF sensors are likely not to represent the last technology for long. The strength of medium format is the size of the sensor[2]. 48 x 36 mm is the point were size become a very strong advantage, enough to compensate for a generation delay on technology. 

6. When the new CMOS sensor was released I did the same commentary, the sensor should be bigger.  I also stated that the next generation DSLR will match or surpass the resolution of the Sonny sensor, and say that it will complicate marketing. So I am not reacting to another high pixel DSLR, I am showing what I was talking about when the sensor was introduced.

7. If it's real and has the proper dynamic range the sensor on the Canon will be about 8660 x 5770 pixels vs 8280 x 6208 for the IQ250. Most people don't shoot Otus lenses, so the IQ should prevail. As I say is one justification less.

Best regards,

[1] We can justify Perrier water etc.
[2] It was the same in film  days. With MF on cmos, now, it will be easier for MF to compete, if the sensor size is there.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2015, 12:14:27 pm »

I understand that this is a sensitive topic for you,but let me clarify that:

Not sensitive, just boring. It's the same thing every 18-24 months.

Maybe you, specifically, did not make this prognostication the last go around, but it is made - like clockwork - upon every new camera release.

Kolor-Pikker

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Re: 50MP Canon 5DS/R spec leaked
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2015, 01:06:16 pm »

1. I never talked about this when the D3x was released.

No one ever really talked about the D3x, the Sony A900 had the same sensor for a third of the price, and the 5D2 was the hot topic with live view and video. I personally know two photographers who dumped their MF/LF film kits over the 5D2.

Quote
2. I am saying that that it will be remove one justification, if the Dynamic range is there. The logic is pretty straightforward: Can people justify MF? of course they can[1]. but they will have one justification less.

Pretty big shoes to fill, seeing as it's Canon after all, it needs to be able to match the Nikon D8xx series let alone the 645 systems.

Quote
3. MF use to have far more dynamic range and resolution than DSLRs in the olden days. Later, MF no longer had a dynamic range advantage (MF vendors were able to keep some people unaware, until the CMOS sensor was released), now DSLR are matching resolution.

In the olden days, the only factor was film size, as every camera had every type of film available to it. With digital, small sensors are faster and easier to design, produce and sell, while larger sizes need proven technology that can produce a good enough yield for the required dimensions, resulting in them getting stuck with decades old base technology, like if development on CRT displays continued to this day. The Sony 33x44mm sensor is the very first medium format sensor that's actually based on the same modern technological base as smaller cameras, and is a good indicator of how things would have been if large-size CMOS wasn't prohibitive to manufacture.

"Matching resolution" is a pretty bold statement if you're only counting pixels - the 36mp D800 in some ways had let down many early adopters who discovered that Nikon glass is woefully inadequate to resolve the sensor, and began adapting other brands...

Quote
4. I agree that, if medium format keeps an advantage on image quality, the current developments will help MF grow. Amateurs  and even some professionals will want to differentiate themselves from  the mirror-less commodities.

In my opinion, MF needs to, and may well soon go mirrorless too.. and I don't mean tech cams, just regular cameras with autofocus. If Sony has any sense about them, and they continue developing large sensors, it may no longer be that MF will have to make do with old tech.

Quote
5. Because of volume,MF sensors are likely not to represent the last technology for long. The strength of medium format is the size of the sensor[2]. 48 x 36 mm is the point were size become a very strong advantage, enough to compensate for a generation delay on technology. 

All it's going to take is a relatively inexpensive MF camera, like a big Sony mirrorless, to introduce more people to the concept and it's going to snowball from there. The ice will get broken sooner or later.

Quote
6. When the new CMOS sensor was released I did the same commentary, the sensor should be bigger.  I also stated that the next generation DSLR will match or surpass the resolution of the Sonny sensor, and say that it will complicate marketing. So I am not reacting to another high pixel DSLR, I am showing what I was talking about when the sensor was introduced.


I'm happy there's a Sony Exmor 33x44mm sensor in the first place, never mind size. Sony says it's difficult to manufacture as it is, so give it time, maybe give them money too. I would much rather have 51 million pixels that are over 5 microns big each.

Quote
7. If it's real and has the proper dynamic range the sensor on the Canon will be about 8660 x 5770 pixels vs 8280 x 6208 for the IQ250. Most people don't shoot Otus lenses, so the IQ should prevail. As I say is one justification less.

As I said, using proper DR and Canon in the same sentence is dicey given their history, but the problem of resolution is also one of file size. Do I really want to shoot the 5D R knowing i'm using up 60mb+ each time for detail I may not even get? People who will buy this camera will almost certainly be those who have TS-Es, Otuses, and the new Sigma Art lenses and have been waiting for so long for something just like this.
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