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Author Topic: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?  (Read 5898 times)

dreed

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Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« on: January 30, 2015, 07:57:34 am »

With shrinking pixels and the threat of diffraction limiting resolution by opening up too much, I try and pay attention to how close things are and use a depth of field tool on my phone to calculate what f stop I need.

However the part I have trouble with is estimating distance and where I need to focus in order to get a sharp picture (on-camera image review isn't always very useful.)

To try and get a better handle on this, I was thinking of using a laser range finder.

Does anyone else do that?
Worthwhile or a waste of time?
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Petrus

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2015, 09:17:54 am »

A construction laser distance measurer would be much more accurate than a golf/hunting laser range finder.

The problem would be transferring that very accurate measurement into the lens focus distance. Most lenses have quite inaccurate distance markings (except hugely expensive cine lenses), which are also affected by temperature. I would think that enlarged live view would always be more precise and does not cost anything.

(Movie) camera assistant's point of view on these devices: http://www.theblackandblue.com/2011/06/02/laser-measuring-device/
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dreed

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2015, 09:43:36 am »

A construction laser distance measurer would be much more accurate than a golf/hunting laser range finder.

The problem would be transferring that very accurate measurement into the lens focus distance. Most lenses have quite inaccurate distance markings (except hugely expensive cine lenses), which are also affected by temperature. I would think that enlarged live view would always be more precise and does not cost anything.

I'm not planning on using the distance scale on the lens but rather if I know I need to focus at something 20m away to get everything from 5m to 40m in focus, I want to use a range finder to locate something that far away, be it a tree, stone, etc.

On the other hand if the camera could tell the distance, that would be perfect.
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bjanes

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2015, 10:46:08 am »

With shrinking pixels and the threat of diffraction limiting resolution by opening up too much, I try and pay attention to how close things are and use a depth of field tool on my phone to calculate what f stop I need.

However the part I have trouble with is estimating distance and where I need to focus in order to get a sharp picture (on-camera image review isn't always very useful.)

To try and get a better handle on this, I was thinking of using a laser range finder.

Does anyone else do that?
Worthwhile or a waste of time?

Measuring the subject distance is only part of the depth of field calculation. Depth of field is relative and depends on assumptions regarding the observer's visual acuity and the distance from which the print will be reviewed. Most DOF tables are for a print of about 8 x 10 inches (~ISO A4 print size) and for less than 20/20 vision. For more demanding users, DOF calculators are available online at Cambridge in Color and from Bart van der Wolf. Bart also has a focus stacking calculator. For field use, an iPhone or Android calculator would be helpful. Any recommendations for these?

Bill
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dwswager

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2015, 10:46:48 am »

I'm not planning on using the distance scale on the lens but rather if I know I need to focus at something 20m away to get everything from 5m to 40m in focus, I want to use a range finder to locate something that far away, be it a tree, stone, etc.

On the other hand if the camera could tell the distance, that would be perfect.
Here is a current thread where this is being discussed:

First, don't let diffraction bugger you totally.  Yes, diffraction onset happens earlier in high density (smaller pixel size) cameras, but DOF sharpness is usually a better trade than trying to limit diffraction blur.  Obviously if you can shoot an image at f/8, then shooting it at f/16 is a waste.  But if you need f/16 for DOF, then you are usually better shooting at f/16 and accepting the diffraction losses.

Using a rangefinder, you need something that can accurately measure the near point of focus, the far point of focus and point at which the lens needs to be focused to get the near and far points withing your limits of acceptable sharpness (Which is going to depend on your own definition as determined by the Circle of Confusion you specify for any DOF calculations).  Hunting/Sports rangefinders typically will not measure short enough.  They tend to be limited to no nearer than 5 or 6 Meters!   I did find a Leica DISTO D2 short range one with a range from 0.05m to 60m.

This is Nikon related, but ever since the AF-D series of lenses, the lens reports to the camera the distance at which it is focused.  Unfortunately, the camera does not impart that information to the user!  It was originally used for Flash exposure.  If Camera companies weren't so stupid, the camera would provide the hyperfocal distance (it knows focal length and aperture) and the current near and far DOF points based on the current distance at which the lens is focused.  Of course, there would need to be a setting in the camera for the Circle of Confusion to be used for these calculations.

How could this be used?  Well it could be reported to the user as above and let them deal with it.  Or the User could be allowed to specify, say by Auto focusing on a near and far point letting the camera know the DOF range you want and given the current focal length and CoC, it would select the aperture necessary (and warn if not).  Alternatively, the camera could have built in focus stacking where you give the near and far focus points and given the current focal length and aperture it would determine how many shots and at what focus distance to shoot each shot and then drive the camera when you say go.  
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t6b9p

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2015, 10:51:36 am »

Quote
Any recommendations for these?

This looked interesting http://www.georgedouvos.com/douvos/OptimumCS-Pro%3B_TrueDoF-Pro%3B_Focus_Stacker.html
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dwswager

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2015, 10:56:03 am »

For field use, an iPhone or Android calculator would be helpful. Any recommendations for these?

On Android, I use and app called Photo Tools for DOF calculations.  There are other tools in there as well.  I also use the full version of Sun Surveyor, Helicon Remote and ND Filter Calculator.
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armand

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2015, 10:56:31 am »

On my Fujis you get DOF real time: at all times when in manual focus, and with half-press of the shutter button in AF. Pretty cool.

dwswager

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2015, 11:01:34 am »

This looked interesting http://www.georgedouvos.com/douvos/OptimumCS-Pro%3B_TrueDoF-Pro%3B_Focus_Stacker.html


I'm android, but I've heard good things about focus stacker.  But since the iPhones couldn't do USB OTG previously, it is a manual calculator.  I use Helicon Remote on my Galaxy Note II via USB to D810 and D7100 and it not only does the calculations, but actually drives the camera.
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dwswager

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2015, 11:08:22 am »

On my Fujis you get DOF real time: at all times when in manual focus, and with half-press of the shutter button in AF. Pretty cool.

Yes that is!  Sometimes, I wish Sony or Samsung or a consumer electronics company would buy Nikon.  I would think Canon would be much better at implementing innovative functionality as they have a CE side, but they don't!
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graeme

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Re: Calculating depth of field - laser range finder?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2015, 11:45:08 am »

Scroll around Live View image on rear LCD while holding down depth of field preview button?
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