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Author Topic: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters  (Read 78356 times)

MatthewCromer

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #180 on: February 06, 2015, 02:24:04 pm »

Quote
I think the 7D II is a fantastic deal for what it is, the best fast-action, multi-functional, wildlife crop camera available.

I think the Sony Alpha 77 mark 2 is better.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #181 on: February 06, 2015, 02:32:38 pm »

In the landscape-focused wilderness trips that I accompany (either as a photography tutor, medical escort or independent photographer) there have been many changes in the past seven years.

Initially, it was almost exclusively Canon bodies - mostly 5D2 and 1Ds3. It was rare to see a Nikon D700 - while this was probably a much better all-round camera, it lacked the resolution of the Canon bodies and did not have the dynamic range of later Exmor sensors.

In the following years, I would see the occasional A900 or D3x, but, by and large, it remained dominated by the Canon 5D2.

All this changed in 2012 with the release of the D800/D800e and the 5D3. I continued to see lots of 5D2s, but also saw an increasing number of D800 and D800e bodies, with relatively few 5D3s

In the trips I accompanied last year, I was now seeing mostly Nikon bodies, as well as Sony bodies with Canon lenses attached, with a few old 5D2s but very few newer Canon bodies. So the tide has completely turned in Nikon/Sony's favour.

All of this, of course, is a very narrow snapshot of one specific segment of photography (landscape) but the same seems to be reflected in the equipment lists of many prominent landscape photographers - where they used to list the 5D2, many now seem to list the D800e or D810 instead.

Re: Canon vs Nikon colours - once I take them into Photoshop it makes no difference anyway. But I find that Canon generally renders too warm and Nikon too cool.

Just to be sure, I'm talking about landscape workshops that I run and as mentioned I have not seen that land slide. I have clients from all over the world.

The colors I'm referring to is the colors from the RAW conversion using a calibrated camera profile. I have found it often very difficult to make the same colors from the two cameras when shot in the exact same conditions. I'm absolutely certain this is caused by the differences in the Bayer filters.

eronald

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #182 on: February 06, 2015, 02:51:17 pm »

Just to be sure, I'm talking about landscape workshops that I run and as mentioned I have not seen that land slide. I have clients from all over the world.

The colors I'm referring to is the colors from the RAW conversion using a calibrated camera profile. I have found it often very difficult to make the same colors from the two cameras when shot in the exact same conditions. I'm absolutely certain this is caused by the differences in the Bayer filters.

Hans,

 Although this is probably not the place, I would like to compliment you about the superb the use of color in the landscape images on your site.

 There is no reason one should be able to match cameras in practice, if the CFA filters are not identical. Let me say this differently - mathematically speaking one should expect different sensors to behave differently :)

 BTW, in MF, my impression is that the H5D60 is very different, maybe better, than the H5D50 for landscape.

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 03:00:31 pm by eronald »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2015, 03:02:16 pm »

The colors I'm referring to is the colors from the RAW conversion using a calibrated camera profile. I have found it often very difficult to make the same colors from the two cameras when shot in the exact same conditions. I'm absolutely certain this is caused by the differences in the Bayer filters.

It's actually from a variety of sources. Bayer spectral transmission being only one of them.

For instance each sensor has different native spectral sensitivity, and an IR filter with a steeper or shallower cut, or a higher or lower cut frequency can make a large difference as well. Even the use of black frame technology can inherently alter the color response characteristics of a camera. Lenses, likewise can have an influence on both color directly, and on image rendering characteristics that influence our perception of color.

Image quality comes from a chain of success elements, a partial list includes:
Lens coating > Lens elements > Aperture blade design > internal body coating > microlens > Anti aliasing filter (if present) > IR filter > sensor photo well > sensor read-out (heat-sinking and/or active cooling very important here) > path to A/D converter > A/D converter > (read-out of black calibration file from sensor recorded as adjunct to the image) > debayering algorithm > color engine > color profile > deconvolution / detail finding algorithm, noise reduction based on black calibration file > noise reduction based on image data > sharpening.

jjj

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #184 on: February 06, 2015, 03:05:18 pm »

Lenses, likewise can have an influence on both color directly, and on image rendering characteristics that influence our perception of color.
Lenses can be markedly different colours, which can be a real problem when filmmaking. Not to mention t-stops that are nowhere near the stated f-stop.
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #185 on: February 06, 2015, 03:08:05 pm »

I think the Sony Alpha 77 mark 2 is better.

I've not used the new Canon but I have the Sony 2 things strike me firstly the price of the Canon is frankly barmy for a crop sensor camera (you can buy 2 x Sony's for less than 1 7d II) The other is the sensor is likely superior on the Sony based on what I've seen so far

All that being said I'm not an action shooter so can't say how they hold up for other areas. EVF's are harder to use for moving subjects. However Canon really are reaming their users for every penny on the european prices of that body. They do have an established user base and the lenses to back it up, Sony have too many gaps though it might be possible with third party offerings.
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dwswager

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #187 on: February 06, 2015, 03:23:30 pm »

36mp sensors were not able to reduce Canon market share significantly vs 21mp (was that the max mp in Canon sensors ?).... why 'd 50mp do something drastic vs 50mp ? are you really expecting 50mp FF Sony sensor to gain something like 1 stop DR vs 36 mp FF Sony sensor in any metric (per sensel or scaled to the same resolution)  ;D ?

Huh, in 2012 Canon held a 17% lead in DSLR sales to Nikon.  In 2013, that was down under 7%.  Final figures for 2014 are not out yet.  Will be interesting to see.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #188 on: February 06, 2015, 03:47:38 pm »

.....

Don't forgot that the 1ds MKIII was $8400.00 when announced!! ....


Paul

That was a different time when many shooters could easily charge a $5-10K a day rate in the studio for many types of commercial work. I don't think many shooters can pull that off so smoothly, But then again, I could be in the wrong world!?
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dwswager

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #189 on: February 06, 2015, 04:23:25 pm »

I think the 7D II is a fantastic deal for what it is, the best fast-action, multi-functional, wildlife crop camera available.

I think the 7DmkII is a great camera hobbled by it's sensor.  I think the Nikon D7100 is a great camera hobbled in shooting some sports and wildlife by it slower functional speed (6fps) and data throughput.  But the Nikon is about 1/2 the price of the 7DmkII which makes it a helluva value.  While the D7100 can shoot about 95% of what the 7DmkII can do and with better pixels, if you have to have that last 5% then the 7DmkII is really the only game in town anywhere near these price points.  But if the rumored D7200/D9300 with 8-10fps and buffer support appears, why get a 7DmkII except for the fact that you are locked into the Canon system.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 05:32:44 pm by dwswager »
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Josh-H

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #190 on: February 06, 2015, 04:39:57 pm »

This is much better interview than the Chuck Westfall one about the new 5DS and R versions HERE.

Expanded commentary on Dynamic Range - in brief, equivalent to the 5D MK3, BUT! with a much lower noise floor and more ability to pull out details out of the shadows.

ITs going to be a long wait to get one of these cameras and see actually real results...
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #191 on: February 06, 2015, 04:52:29 pm »

I think the 7DmkII is a great camera hobbled by it's sensor.  I think the Nikon D7100 is a great camera hobbled in shooting some sports and wildlife by it slower functional speed (6fps) and data throughput.  But the Nikon is about 1/2 the price of the D7100 which makes it a helluva value.  While the D7100 can shoot about 95% of what the 7DmkII can do and with better pixels, if you have to have that last 5% then the 7DmkII is really the only game in town anywhere near these price points.  But if the rumored D7200/D9300 with 8-10fps and buffer support appears, why get a 7DmkII except for the fact that you are locked into the Canon system.


The 7D II has so much more overall functionality, and durability, than the D7100, there's really no comparison.

The D7100 does have a better sensor though, and I do agree that is the one hobble of the 7D II as a $1700 camera.

Likewise, the D7100 is at its price point, because that is where the price point of a smaller, less-functional, less durable camera belongs (even with a decent sensor).

Jack
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 04:54:08 pm by John Koerner »
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #192 on: February 06, 2015, 05:10:36 pm »

This is much better interview than the Chuck Westfall one about the new 5DS and R versions HERE.

Expanded commentary on Dynamic Range - in brief, equivalent to the 5D MK3, BUT! with a much lower noise floor and more ability to pull out details out of the shadows.

ITs going to be a long wait to get one of these cameras and see actually real results...


Interesting how the lens is more so the product showing Canon making a statement, and showing superiority, and not the camera.
Thought they might have done so with a 50mp sensor to blow the competition away in every aspect for the 5DSR. He didn't say anything about the quality of it except for the points about HL and Shadows.  I was hoping to hear more of a roar about its IQ at least even on paper trumping what we have available now.  I hope they are just being quiet about it and then letting the files blow us away...but that maybe wishful thinking?
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dwswager

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #193 on: February 06, 2015, 05:40:31 pm »


The 7D II has so much more overall functionality, and durability, than the D7100, there's really no comparison.

The D7100 does have a better sensor though, and I do agree that is the one hobble of the 7D II as a $1700 camera.

Likewise, the D7100 is at its price point, because that is where the price point of a smaller, less-functional, less durable camera belongs (even with a decent sensor).

Jack

While the D7100 front and bottom are plastic, the top and rear are magnesium alloy.  And it is dust and water sealed to D800 levels.  It is actually a very durable camera.  And other than the 4 fps slower and smaller buffer, it is as full featured as the 7DmkII.  I wish it had CF support, but dual SD cards work.   In fact, for most photographers considering these 2 cameras, the D7100 is by far a better value.  In fact, it is probably one of the best values in the DSLR market right now.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #194 on: February 06, 2015, 06:49:47 pm »

This is much better interview than the Chuck Westfall one about the new 5DS and R versions HERE.

Expanded commentary on Dynamic Range - in brief, equivalent to the 5D MK3, BUT! with a much lower noise floor and more ability to pull out details out of the shadows.

ITs going to be a long wait to get one of these cameras and see actually real results...

Hum... many people would probably consider than "same DR" and "much lower noise floor" are non compatible statments.

There is indeed little value discussing till DxO puts their hands on a camera and measure actual performance.

Cheers,
Bernard

jjj

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #195 on: February 06, 2015, 06:53:41 pm »

Huh, in 2012 Canon held a 17% lead in DSLR sales to Nikon.  In 2013, that was down under 7%.  Final figures for 2014 are not out yet.  Will be interesting to see.
Market share is also very dependent on how many new cameras are launched. So it would be instructive to compare market share by month along with release dates of new kit.
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jjj

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #196 on: February 06, 2015, 06:55:21 pm »

Hum... many people would probably consider than "same DR" and "much lower noise floor" are non compatible statments.

There is indeed little value discussing till DxO puts their hands on a camera and measure actual performance.
Or until people take actual photos with camera.  :P
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dwswager

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #197 on: February 06, 2015, 07:13:33 pm »

Hum... many people would probably consider than "same DR" and "much lower noise floor" are non compatible statments.

There is indeed little value discussing till DxO puts their hands on a camera and measure actual performance.

While generally synonymous outcomes as Higher DR and Lower Noise are, there is another possibility.  Just like the better gain strategy on the 7DmkII, there could be a better noise cancelling strategy employed post capture.  Hence, that would not increase DR, but could result in cleaner shadows.

But like you said, until there are some measurements, no one knows.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #198 on: February 06, 2015, 08:28:36 pm »

DR and low noise are not necessarilly related. DR is related to maximum signal to noise ratio (SNR), meaning that you might have more DR in a system with higher noise than one with low noise.

What does not make sense is that with the same DR you wil be able to pull up the shadows better unless you give more exposure, risking blown out highlights

LesPalenik

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #199 on: February 06, 2015, 09:38:53 pm »

Quote
Quote from: Rajan Parrikar on February 05, 2015, 11:12:02 PM
Preorders in April.

Sample images -

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5dsr/index.html

PS: Those reddish blotches on the hippo's skin - are those aliasing artifacts?

Quote from: Hans Kruse on February 06, 2015, 9:54 AM
As far as I can tell the hippo looks just fine as a hippo. Clearly the hippo has been involved in some fights which have left some marks. That's how it is to be a hippo Smiley

Don't worry about those nasty looking blotches and no need to blame them on Canon sensor! In reality, they are caused by sweating on a hot day.
When a hippo perspires, its sweat turns red because of unusual reddish pigments that are secreted with it. Molecules in this pigment absorb ultraviolet light, and the rather acidic and antibiotic secretion functions as a natural sunscreen.

If you took this camera on an Antarctica trip, I'm sure you wouldn't get any red spots on the penguins.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 10:02:47 pm by LesPalenik »
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