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Author Topic: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?  (Read 79792 times)

Theodoros

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #140 on: February 10, 2015, 10:33:58 am »

Make it today... because tomorrow I'll start doing a major project and I won't have time to post here other than a couple (or three) posts and only during the weekends... Cheers.  ;)
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AlterEgo

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #141 on: February 10, 2015, 04:42:58 pm »

No... I want your mail and (real) name... even privately. PM them to me, There will be original RAW files captured with Sinarback 54H in 16x true colour capture, the  subjects are Byzantine Icons out of my personal belongings that I use to calibrate and test things... You'll need Sinar software (6.1.2) to open them... which even if you download (it's free) you won't be able to activate unless if you own a Sinarback yourself.
I pm'd you my email address - not sure what do you want to achieve with that, because I do not ask for any valuable raw files from you - I am asking to place a white sheet of paper with a black line that takes _1_ (one) sensel width-wise in a single shot mode, make single shot and multishot of that target and share the raw files... now if I will not be able to open (or get help to open) the files that's a different story - my fault, not yours... but why do I need icons though ? if you own the camera and use it on a regular basis it is not a big deal to make such shots (2) and that will answer all questions...
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Theodoros

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #142 on: February 10, 2015, 05:17:14 pm »

I pm'd you my email address - not sure what do you want to achieve with that, because I do not ask for any valuable raw files from you - I am asking to place a white sheet of paper with a black line that takes _1_ (one) sensel width-wise in a single shot mode, make single shot and multishot of that target and share the raw files... now if I will not be able to open (or get help to open) the files that's a different story - my fault, not yours... but why do I need icons though ? if you own the camera and use it on a regular basis it is not a big deal to make such shots (2) and that will answer all questions...

You'll be able to open the single shot raw file with LR or other, but you won't be able to open the 4x or 16x file... not even if you download Sinar's 6.1.2 software... because you don't have the factory set "white reference" which accompanies the purchase of each back...   ;) I've said that to you many times and you keep asking the same... still expect the info I asked you... (name and residence)... Why? ...it's because I don't like your attitude or arrogance (I think you are a double name troll)... You behave like some other "Einsteins" I've seen around and don't respect the unknown to you...  8)
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AlterEgo

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #143 on: February 10, 2015, 08:36:21 pm »

still expect the info I asked you... (name and residence)...
you are way too unreasonable - if you can provide 2 raw files with the content that has no commercial value just do it and the ball is on my side... but you are instead attaching strings that are irrelevant, now I can understand if you are sharing the actual work of yours (which I specifically ask you not to, because I might need to share the files further with the purpose to try to examine those) instead of test files (which I ask for)... that simple.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #144 on: February 11, 2015, 09:45:54 am »

Theodoros... the author of rawdigger code (and I asked him yesterday) will be glad to receive a multishot raw from Sinar to test and introduce the support (so far they don't have any samples - so while they have a code, they did not have a chance to test it w/ real files), so please share... you have a chance to make a positive contribution  :) ... if you don't want to send it to me - send it directly to Alex Tutubalin (rawdigger, frv, libraw) - may be that will address your concerns  :)
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edwinb

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #145 on: February 22, 2015, 11:09:35 am »

Ive been away for a while and was reading some of this to catch up to current levels of discussion
There were a number of points  I would like to clarify (unless I didn't understand?)

Sinar captureshop latest and free download from sinar takes by default dng format files
these files can be exchanged and used with captureshop software with or without a camera back or any other camera file

The best camera system in the world for accurate colour is the Sinar CTM system.
Reports with academic credibility confirm by actual measurement this to be so - Quote"The results for the Hasselblad and Phase One were especially disappointing"

If any London based members are involved in this field there is an open day with Sinar CTM and eXact Camera demonstration Wednesday 4th March
I can arrange sample images of non-commercial value
regards
Edwin
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Edwin Blenkinsopp
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Theodoros

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #146 on: February 22, 2015, 12:41:47 pm »

Ive been away for a while and was reading some of this to catch up to current levels of discussion
There were a number of points  I would like to clarify (unless I didn't understand?)

Sinar captureshop latest and free download from sinar takes by default dng format files
these files can be exchanged and used with captureshop software with or without a camera back or any other camera file

The best camera system in the world for accurate colour is the Sinar CTM system.
Reports with academic credibility confirm by actual measurement this to be so - Quote"The results for the Hasselblad and Phase One were especially disappointing"

If any London based members are involved in this field there is an open day with Sinar CTM and eXact Camera demonstration Wednesday 4th March
I can arrange sample images of non-commercial value
regards
Edwin

Hi Edwin... Sinar's superiority in true colour management has been discussed already (by me) and it is so... Sinar is in a class of its own as far as accurate colour management is concerned...

DNGs can be exported from Sinar software, but it is likely that the colour profile will suffer in the conversion... It's best for one that uses Sinar for Art reproduction (he better do...), to work on files with Sinar software and have direct TIFFs on both RGB & FOGRA by adapting his own profiles to be compatible with Sinar's idea on how profiles work correctly... Clearly if Sinar's colour profiling is compared with any other manufacturer, it's a huge defeat for that other maker...  It's like comparing a qualified pilot with an elementary school student to pilot a combat aircraft...  the difference is that much!

In fact, I've made a listing asking to trade my (very recently) purchased Hasselblad CF-39MS, with either a Sinarback 86H, or an eXact ( http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=98023.0 )... The decision was made just after I tried (correctly used) my Sinarback 54H in 16x mode...  Hasselblad multishot backs are far superior than any single shot back for still work, but as far as colour accuracy is concerned, they pale if compared with Sinar's superiority!
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edwinb

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #147 on: February 22, 2015, 12:52:23 pm »

Thanks for the update Theodoros,
If I can help with adaptors or cables when you exchange your parts pm me and I will try.
regards
Edwin
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Edwin Blenkinsopp
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Atina

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #148 on: February 22, 2015, 01:24:06 pm »

Theodoros, are you the photographer who goes around monasteries and takes high-quality pictures of Byzantine icons? I seem to remember someone here doing that, but I can't remember if it was you.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #149 on: February 22, 2015, 01:24:36 pm »

The best camera system in the world for accurate colour is the Sinar CTM system.
Reports with academic credibility confirm by actual measurement this to be so - Quote"The results for the Hasselblad and Phase One were especially disappointing"

Hi Edwin!

The study you link to was published in 2012 and the version of Capture One used was the general-purpose release. The commercial-photography color profiles in Capture One's general-purpose release were carefully crafted for pleasing color. As this paper shows they were not designed for, nor excelled at, preservation oriented color accuracy. In fact the sentence before the one you quoted sums this up quite well "Our hypothesis was confirmed: the commercial cameras with profiles optimized for subjective color reproduction produced large colorimetric errors."

However, a lot has changed since 2012!

DTDCH / Phase One's very fast growth in the Cultural Heritage market opened the door for the creation of a new set of color profiles, built exclusively for accurate color in linear art reproduction. These new CH Color Profiles were painstakingly researched, developed, and field tested and were included in the first release of Capture One Cultural Heritage (Capture One CH) in late 2014.

The Getty, where the study you linked to was done, is now one of our largest clients. They are constantly pushing the boundaries of quality in Cultural Heritage imaging and do amazing work to further that community. It is largely because of feedback from The Getty and our growing list of Cultural Heritage Clients that we made this investment in class-leading reproduction color profiles. I was honored to be invited to provide a (see also: training on Capture One CH at the Getty Research Institute).

Speaking of... Will we be seeing you at IS&T Archiving conference, hosted this year at the Getty, in May? We'll be hosting a short course on Capture One CH and (pending acceptance) publishing a paper on Capture One CH. I'd love to buy you a drink.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 01:46:22 pm by Doug Peterson »
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yaya

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #150 on: February 22, 2015, 02:02:48 pm »

Happy to see the then 6 yr old, out of production Aptus 75 coming 2nd with no information about the software/ profile/ curve that were used...

BR

Yair
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Theodoros

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #151 on: February 22, 2015, 03:00:53 pm »

Hi Edwin!

The study you link to was published in 2012 and the version of Capture One used was the general-purpose release. The commercial-photography color profiles in Capture One's general-purpose release were carefully crafted for pleasing color.


Yes... My impression when tried past P1 backs, was that they where "all over the place" as far as colour accuracy was concerned... IMO, the Dalsa 33mp backs (the Sinar Emotion 75/LV & Leaf 75/S) where by far more accurate for colour as far as single shot backs where concerned.

EDIT: That said, I always thought that "pleasing colour" is a personal matter that appeals different to different photographers and thus, always preferred as accurate colour as single shot backs can give... and then adapt it to my personal "pleasing colour" preferences for other purposes than art reproduction....

However, a lot has changed since 2012!

DTDCH / Phase One's very fast growth in the Cultural Heritage market opened the door for the creation of a new set of color profiles, built exclusively for accurate color in linear art reproduction. These new CH Color Profiles were painstakingly researched, developed, and field tested and were included in the first release of Capture One Cultural Heritage (Capture One CH) in late 2014.

The Getty, where the study you linked to was done, is now one of our largest clients. They are constantly pushing the boundaries of quality in Cultural Heritage imaging and do amazing work to further that community. It is largely because of feedback from The Getty and our growing list of Cultural Heritage Clients that we made this investment in class-leading reproduction color profiles. I was honored to be invited to provide a (see also: training on Capture One CH at the Getty Research Institute).

Speaking of... Will we be seeing you at IS&T Archiving conference, hosted this year at the Getty, in May? We'll be hosting a short course on Capture One CH and (pending acceptance) publishing a paper on Capture One CH. I'd love to buy you a drink.

Glad to hear that...but still, there is no way a single shot back can match a multishot back for resolution and absence of artefacts, as well as for colour depth for art reproduction work... Provided of course, that the aim is "faithful reproduction" and that correct calibrating of colour profiling for the particular subject to be reproduced  is used... (The previous is exactly where Sinarbacks excel....)  ;)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 03:41:30 pm by Theodoros »
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edwinb

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #152 on: February 22, 2015, 03:12:15 pm »

I'm sure RIT considers any new offerings, I don't think anything stands still, Sinar has never waited for its competitors to catch-up.

Thank's for the offers of a drink but the £2k round trip to get it makes it a bit pricey
Anyone in London is welcome to the Mayfair studios on 4th March but it will just be coffee and business ;-)

best regards
Edwin
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Edwin Blenkinsopp
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AlterEgo

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #153 on: February 22, 2015, 07:30:54 pm »

Theodoros, so you decided not to put the words where your mouth was :-)... and talked your way of providing any raw files - that was expected
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Theodoros

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #154 on: February 22, 2015, 07:51:01 pm »

Theodoros, so you decided not to put the words where your mouth was :-)... and talked your way of providing any raw files - that was expected

Provide them to who?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #155 on: February 22, 2015, 11:14:10 pm »

Hi Doug,

I am not in the reproduction business, but I have some amateurish interest in colour reproduction, and I would say that profiles are very important for colour reproduction. So it is quite possible that a camera profile regarded good for studio shots would give faulty reproduction while a profile intended for good reproduction may yield a bit boring colour.

The samples below were shot for an article I was writing. The subject was a simple flower, but it was chosen to demonstrate the effect of profiles on two natural colours I found tricky.  Before taking the picture I cut away some small samples and measured it with ny ColorMunki spectrometer.

The flower blades were deep purplish blue, like this:


While green variation was more like this:


The bluish purple was identified by Photoshop as Pantone 268 C. The greenish blades had more variation.

Capture One gave this image with it's default profile:


Lightroom using Adobe Standad Profile gave another image with much better reproduction of the "bluish purple":


The profile I normally use with my P45+ in Lightroom gave this image:


My Sony camera using Adobe Standard Profile gave this reproduction:


The same camera using Capture One's default profile gave this image:


What I may think this shows that profiles may matter more than sensors. There is probably some intrinsic colour rendition on a sensor, relating to its spectrum response and also on UV and IR filtration.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Edwin!

The study you link to was published in 2012 and the version of Capture One used was the general-purpose release. The commercial-photography color profiles in Capture One's general-purpose release were carefully crafted for pleasing color. As this paper shows they were not designed for, nor excelled at, preservation oriented color accuracy. In fact the sentence before the one you quoted sums this up quite well "Our hypothesis was confirmed: the commercial cameras with profiles optimized for subjective color reproduction produced large colorimetric errors."

However, a lot has changed since 2012!

DTDCH / Phase One's very fast growth in the Cultural Heritage market opened the door for the creation of a new set of color profiles, built exclusively for accurate color in linear art reproduction. These new CH Color Profiles were painstakingly researched, developed, and field tested and were included in the first release of Capture One Cultural Heritage (Capture One CH) in late 2014.

The Getty, where the study you linked to was done, is now one of our largest clients. They are constantly pushing the boundaries of quality in Cultural Heritage imaging and do amazing work to further that community. It is largely because of feedback from The Getty and our growing list of Cultural Heritage Clients that we made this investment in class-leading reproduction color profiles. I was honored to be invited to provide a (see also: training on Capture One CH at the Getty Research Institute).

Speaking of... Will we be seeing you at IS&T Archiving conference, hosted this year at the Getty, in May? We'll be hosting a short course on Capture One CH and (pending acceptance) publishing a paper on Capture One CH. I'd love to buy you a drink.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #156 on: February 23, 2015, 05:28:38 am »

What I may think this shows that profiles may matter more than sensors.

Hi Erik,

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I agree that the profiles are an important factor in how colors are converted/rendered.

Quote
There is probably some intrinsic colour rendition on a sensor, relating to its spectrum response and also on UV and IR filtration.

Silicon based image sensors basically have the same spectral sensitivity, but it is modified by the channel filters, implemented either as a filter wheel on a 'monochrome' sensor, or as a Bayer CFA (single-shot or multi-shot) full color/colour device. Since the filter channels do not correspond to the sensitivities of the cones of our eyes, there will always be some issues in accurate reproduction of color.

I've followed your flower issue in other threads with interest, but do not want to derail this thread by rehashing everything here. However, did you ever attempt to modify the color profile in Capture One (in the Color editor you can tweak color conversion and rewrite the settings as a new profile)? I'm not saying that it's the same as generating a dedicated profile from scratch, based on specific color pigment/dye input with a specific lens using a specific illuminant (lightsource), but it does offer a certain level of influence. Just pick the flower petal color with the advanced color editor's sampler, and see if it can be selectively changed to something that looks more purple, without affecting true blues. That could perhaps tell you whether it is the CFA demosaicing, or the profiling that turns your purples to blue, without having to generate your own profile from scratch  (which is not easy).

Cheers,
Bart
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Theodoros

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #157 on: February 23, 2015, 05:49:47 am »


In addition to the above, any profile is further influenced by the sensor's temperature of operation at the moment of capturing an image.... Sinar's method of taking a "black reference" before each shot, is taking even that into account and automatically adjusts the profile to the "new" black reference with respect to the factory set (or user preset) white reference and automatically adjusts the rest of the colour chart that has been shot for calibration purposes and memorised, to be compatible with the white and black reference.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #158 on: February 23, 2015, 11:57:36 am »

Hi,

Yes, I tried it and it was easy. On the other hand all other conversions I did got the colours almost exactly right, without any tweaking and that is the reason I am pretty sure this a profile issue and not a CFA issue.

When doing repro work, I would presume that a profile is needed that reproduces the colours without need for tweaking.

Here are a bunch of conversions: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/OLS_OnColor/SimpleCase/

Best regards
Erik


I've followed your flower issue in other threads with interest, but do not want to derail this thread by rehashing everything here. However, did you ever attempt to modify the color profile in Capture One (in the Color editor you can tweak color conversion and rewrite the settings as a new profile)? I'm not saying that it's the same as generating a dedicated profile from scratch, based on specific color pigment/dye input with a specific lens using a specific illuminant (lightsource), but it does offer a certain level of influence. Just pick the flower petal color with the advanced color editor's sampler, and see if it can be selectively changed to something that looks more purple, without affecting true blues. That could perhaps tell you whether it is the CFA demosaicing, or the profiling that turns your purples to blue, without having to generate your own profile from scratch  (which is not easy).

Cheers,
Bart
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egor

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Re: Best camera setup for Fine Art Repro? Scanning backs? High MegaPixel DSLR?
« Reply #159 on: February 24, 2015, 01:09:24 pm »

Love this subject! Great reading thru all the posts, good info for anyone just getting involved in this biz for sure
I have dedicated a large portion of my life and experience to art repro capture, and run a very successful group of studios one of which is entirely dedicated to this very subject. Not our bread and butter, but enough to employ 3 highly skilled and experienced craftsmen, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and studio space.
My firm belief is that info gleaned from art repro capture research is immediately applied to our commercial work and vice versa.

I don't think the initial question "Best camera setup for art repro...?" is a serious one.
Analogous to a  question like "what is the best car for driving on mountain roads?"
-Are we racing? Is speed an issue? whats our budget? Will there be weather? who are our passengers? Is comfort an issue? Are they paying for the trip? will there be sand, or water, or rocks on our path? How much gas do we need?...etc

We have many clients for art repro capture and reproduction but most are private collections, large museums, some really high end well heeled artists, and insurance companies.
One of the posts earlier in this discussion stated that $1000 for a single image was very high. I can assure you that $1000+/image is not considered crazy expensive, in fact, its fairly commonplace. We just completed a single capture for a museum reproduction for over $10k. Mind you we are not just one photographer with a bitchin camera and a computer, but a highly skilled team of specialists who have all been doing this for major museums and artists since the 70’s and film days. So though $10K might seem like a bundle, it is very small compared to value of the painting we were hired to capture...and we were hired to do it twice! (before and after restoration) The restoration work on this single painting alone cost over $100K. Just the scaffolding costs were close to that.

We have most if not all of the gear mentioned in this thread but over 50% of the time we have found that a highly skilled and experienced operator who knows how to properly light, expose, post-proc using C1 with an 80MP CCD MFD back and corresponding lenses is our go to system.

Recently (Fall 2014) we went up against a skilled competitor who uses the Sinar system and we bid using our Credo80 system and our team. We both had to show accuracy and competence on a smaller piece about 6ft x 9ft (valued at $12 million!)
In the end, we won the contract based on a variety of factors but our color accuracy was said to be the most important factor.
So although, on paper, I agree that a true-color type system with multi-pop or scan back should be more accurate, there are many more factors that go into the equation and should be considered.

For instance, we tested out the Hassy 200MP MS and though on paper it looked like a winner, in real world testing, the 6pop multistep tech did not work so good, suffered from misregistration, and was extremely susceptible to even the most minute vibrations. Even when bolted to a concrete floor we had problems with it.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 01:40:04 pm by egor »
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