How to set Black Point Compensation from LR print module

[Paul2660]

I am trying to find the toggle for black point compensation in the print module for LR 5.7.  It makes a big difference for the matte black ink prints, and the relative colormetric color space allowing more shadow recovery.  The toggle is always in the print dialog with CS3, or CC but I can't find it in LR.  LR has been really blocking up my blacks, mainly in shadows and I have been trying to compensate for it by adding even more shadow recovery before I print, however I went back to CC and made a print, and with the black point compensation turned on, I have a much better overall print.  I just can't find where this is in LR? 

Hate to go back to CC for matte ink, but from what I am seeing, this one addition makes a big difference. 

I am running window 7, but the interface should be the same inside of LR. 

Thanks
Paul

[Mark D Segal]

I haven't seen such a setting in LR, but if I am not mistaken, when you select Relative Colorimetric as the Rendering Intent in the Print Module, BPC is looked after. I'm of course willing to be corrected on this.

[Paul2660]

Hello Mark

Your impression is the same as I thought but after seeing 2 matte prints, one from CC where I could check BPC and one from LR both the relative colorimetric intent, the CC print has less blocking in the shadows.

I only have this issue with matte papers using matte ink. Shadows tend to block up with a total loss of details. It won't be an issue with LR and photo black ink and glossy or semi gloss papers.

This issue has been a problem with my matte prints for a while. Use of the perceptual intent helps but at a lack of deep colors. At least with my prints on the 7800.

Paul

[digitaldog]

You can't turn off BPC in Lightroom (and there's no reason to do so).

[Mark D Segal]

You can't turn off BPC in Lightroom (and there's no reason to do so).

OK, so as I thought - on by default - but that then exacerbates the question Paul is posing about why his shadow detail seems more blocked-up in LR prints than in CC prints of the same photo. (I'm assuming, Paul, that all other settings are identical?)

[digitaldog]

OK, so as I thought - on by default - but that then exacerbates the question Paul is posing about why his shadow detail seems more blocked-up in LR prints than in CC prints of the same photo. (I'm assuming, Paul, that all other settings are identical?)

It's the profile 
BPC was designed to fix an issue with mapping source to destination black. When a profile isn't following spec. Otherwise it does nothing. The profile is kind of suspect!

[Mark D Segal]

It's the profile 
BPC was designed to fix an issue with mapping source to destination black. When a profile isn't following spec. Otherwise it does nothing. The profile is kind of suspect!

Paul, were you using the same profile for the prints from both LR and CC?

[Paul2660]

Mark. Yes same profile between both programs.

I have had the problem with pretty any matte profile, stock like from Epson or Canson or a custom one I have created with i1 Publish. 

It had been so long that I had printed from CC I was surprised by the difference.

In the past the only solution I had found was use of the perceptual intent.

Paul

[digitaldog]

In the past the only solution I had found was use of the perceptual intent.

Exactly, as BPC probably isn't necessary with that RI.


Update/note to clarify. BPC is still invoked, it's always on in LR. Again, it either does something useful because it's necessary or it doesn't. So with RelCol, with the profile under discussion, BPC IS producing a bigger effect than Perceptual.

[Mark D Segal]

Exactly, as BPC probably isn't necessary with that RI.

OK, so what happens in LR if you select Perceptual in the Print Module? Does it de-activate BPC?

[digitaldog]

OK, so what happens in LR if you select Perceptual in the Print Module? Does it de-activate BPC?

It's always activated. The mapping from source to destination black is different from RelCol, that's all.

[Mark D Segal]

It's always activated. The mapping from source to destination black is different from RelCol, that's all.

Do you think any useful purpose would be served if it were made to be optional as it is in PS?

[digitaldog]

Do you think any useful purpose would be served if it were made to be optional as it is in PS?

It is optional in PS. It isn't in LR which attempts to simplify color management and that's why Adobe keeps on always.
Now truth be told, not everyone is in agreement about this, or that BPC is even necessary. I've yet to see a reason to turn it off. The qualities of the profile and how it deals with source to destination black plays the big role here, so maybe someone who's worked with profiles built in other packages has a different experience.

[Mark D Segal]

It is optional in PS. It isn't in LR which attempts to simplify color management and that's why Adobe keeps on always.
Now truth be told, not everyone is in agreement about this, or that BPC is even necessary. I've yet to see a reason to turn it off. The qualities of the profile and how it deals with source to destination black plays the big role here, so maybe someone who's worked with profiles built in other packages has a different experience.

Paul says he used the same profile in both applications. So why should he be getting a different printing outcome with quartertones on matte paper between the two applications? Presumably the CMS is the same for both?

[digitaldog]

Paul says he used the same profile in both applications. So why should he be getting a different printing outcome with quartertones on matte paper between the two applications? Presumably the CMS is the same for both?

They are the same. As to the differences, don't know. They should produce identical results.

[Mark D Segal]

They are the same. As to the differences, don't know. They should produce identical results.

Agreed. Pretty much what we would expect. But he's getting differences. So there has to be a reason. Quartertones on matte are tricky to reproduce in a satisfying manner, one of the reasons I stopped printing matte from the time the baryta papers hit the market. Before then I found myself engaging in gymnastics in Photoshop with blend modes and so on, to simulate richness in shadow detail and avoid muddiness.