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Author Topic: I hate to break it to you guys (and gals)...but metal prints fade like hell.  (Read 11279 times)

Iluvmycam

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Metal prints are some of the worst fading media out there. (Worst being Freestyle / Agfacolor circa 1970's then Eastman Kodak dye transfer prints  )

I will post a report a few months at the end of my Tumblr also with a reports on gloss optimizers that are still being tested.

http://fadetesting.tumblr.com/

Now, I've only tested one metal print media. So I can't speak for them all. (They may use different dyes and pigments.) But eye opening in any case.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 03:49:04 pm by iluvmycam »
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bill t.

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I have some Premium Luster and Glossy RC prints that have faded badly in average fluorescent lighting over the course of 4 or 5 years in archival framing.  Same kind of emulsion as on the metallics, and the main reason I stay away from that ilk.
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Justan

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>...but metal prints fade like hell.

Thanks, didn’t know the short display life of metal prints, but will mention it when prospects ask about the option.

Ernst Dinkla

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Metal prints are some of the worst fading media out there. (Worst being Freestyle / Agfacolor circa 1970's then Eastman Kodak dye transfer prints  )

I will post a report a few months at the end of my Tumblr also with a reports on gloss optimizers that are still being tested.

http://fadetesting.tumblr.com/

Now, I've only tested one metal print media. So I can't speak for them all. (They may use different dyes and pigments.) But eye opening in any case.



It would separate apples and oranges if you made the distinction between dye and pigment inks next to the ink brand in all the samples shown.

Metal prints; the dye sublimation on aluminium etc or a direct inkjet print, dye or pigment, on metallic RC paper?

On the Kodachrome Ektachrome fading, Kodachrome dark storage is way better than Ektachrome dark storage, with slides in the slide projector it is the opposite, Kodachrome fades faster.

We have of course Aardenburg-Imaging for tests that relate more to normal display conditions for inkjet prints this forum is about.

So far your crude test delivers what other tests did. Including the darkening of OBA content prints when stored dark.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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Some Guy

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Yeah, dye ink fades and pretty quick, imho.  Plus dye is the preferred ink to let the metallic base shine through over a pigment.

I was painting off an image in the backyard and left my paint pallet covering half the image for maybe 3 hours in the afternoon over three days (About 9 hours in the sunlight.).  It was very apparent the colors where I had left the pallet covering the print had colors fade like mad in the uncovered part.  Dark blue went to a washed out cyan.  I would have expected it to last more than 3 days with dye, but wasn't to be.  Pretty sad really.

Some dyes evidently last longer than others, but haven't seen from whom these come from.

There is an aluminized vacuum-coated paper (poly film) call Chromaroll that might get around the OBC issues, but don't have any experience with it yet.  It just popped up in an Amazon search and the outfit is supposedly coming out with a newer version of it called Chromaroll 2.0 with an adhesive backing.  Amazon had Chromaroll 5 which supposedly is like glass,  but I don't know personally anything about it over metallic (silver) coated papers or how it compares to Chromalux aluminum plates.

SG
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Wayne Fox

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Metal prints; the dye sublimation on aluminium etc or a direct inkjet print, dye or pigment, on metallic RC paper?


exactly ... there is more than one type of “metallic” print.  If it is Kodak Metallic RC paper, it won’t perform much differently than other Kodak chemical processes.  If it is inkjet metallic, it should perform similarly to the paper types with the same printer/ink.  As far as dye sub, I don’t believe it’s been tested by an independent source yet, but according to available tests it will outlast chemical prints but isn’t as good as pigment inkjet.

Nothing surprising in any of the results ... wilhelm and aardenburg have already shown all of this with much more accurate and scientific systems.  You were surprised things faded?

Using the sun is pretty crude (I remember doing stuff like this back in the 70’s). 
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Griffin86

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I bought a roll of Chromaroll. I wasn't happy with it, it might have been the Canon ink also.

1. You have to be very careful with the prints. Have two people carry a print. They are floppy, if it bends too much it will crease and ruin the print.

2. Ink smudges very easy.  You will leave finger prints on it if you're not careful.

3. Takes a long time to dry and are dust magnets.

4. Because they take a long time to dry, I tried spraying them right away. The results were unacceptable.

5. They look beautiful and cool if you light them right. They are too dark.


Yeah, dye ink fades and pretty quick, imho.  Plus dye is the preferred ink to let the metallic base shine through over a pigment.

I was painting off an image in the backyard and left my paint pallet covering half the image for maybe 3 hours in the afternoon over three days (About 9 hours in the sunlight.).  It was very apparent the colors where I had left the pallet covering the print had colors fade like mad in the uncovered part.  Dark blue went to a washed out cyan.  I would have expected it to last more than 3 days with dye, but wasn't to be.  Pretty sad really.

Some dyes evidently last longer than others, but haven't seen from whom these come from.

There is an aluminized vacuum-coated paper (poly film) call Chromaroll that might get around the OBC issues, but don't have any experience with it yet.  It just popped up in an Amazon search and the outfit is supposedly coming out with a newer version of it called Chromaroll 2.0 with an adhesive backing.  Amazon had Chromaroll 5 which supposedly is like glass,  but I don't know personally anything about it over metallic (silver) coated papers or how it compares to Chromalux aluminum plates.

SG

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bgphoto

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Was that Chromaroll I or II?

I sampled both and was not impressed with the version I but version II on my 9890 was slightly tacky after printing. I don't recall how long it took to completely dry. I am certain it was not long. I have not had any of their media larger than the 10" sample roll but I would probably agree that it would crease if not handled properly. But, that is true on most RC papers as well.

When printing on the Chromaroll product you have the same issue as with clear aluminum prints, they become desaturated because of the lack of white pigment behind the image. Increase the saturation to overcome that issue.

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crwoo

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as I hear it's dye ink, right? and dye ink fades.
either way, it looks amazing.
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Griffin86

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It was Chromaroll I. It took probably 3 days to dry and it could still smear. It being desaturated was never the problem, the problem is that it was too dark and the gamut wasn't that large. You needed quite a bit of light at the right angle to make it pop. I haven't used any RC paper, but the Chromaroll didn't want roll up like other fine art paper. It just wanted to flop everywhere. I ended babysitting it and pulling it over plywood so it wouldn't crease. It was very frustrating, I gave up and decided to go on to either dye sub onto aluminum or face mount fuji flex on acrylic. Seeing that the dye sub prints have been fading, the best is probably going to face mounting fujiflex.  :-\

Was that Chromaroll I or II?

I sampled both and was not impressed with the version I but version II on my 9890 was slightly tacky after printing. I don't recall how long it took to completely dry. I am certain it was not long. I have not had any of their media larger than the 10" sample roll but I would probably agree that it would crease if not handled properly. But, that is true on most RC papers as well.

When printing on the Chromaroll product you have the same issue as with clear aluminum prints, they become desaturated because of the lack of white pigment behind the image. Increase the saturation to overcome that issue.
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Iluvmycam

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I have some Premium Luster and Glossy RC prints that have faded badly in average fluorescent lighting over the course of 4 or 5 years in archival framing.  Same kind of emulsion as on the metallics, and the main reason I stay away from that ilk.

Yes, most anything with color will fade over time. Metal prints just fade a lot faster than inkjets and laser prints.
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Iluvmycam

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It would separate apples and oranges if you made the distinction between dye and pigment inks next to the ink brand in all the samples shown.

Metal prints; the dye sublimation on aluminium etc or a direct inkjet print, dye or pigment, on metallic RC paper?

On the Kodachrome Ektachrome fading, Kodachrome dark storage is way better than Ektachrome dark storage, with slides in the slide projector it is the opposite, Kodachrome fades faster.

We have of course Aardenburg-Imaging for tests that relate more to normal display conditions for inkjet prints this forum is about.

So far your crude test delivers what other tests did. Including the darkening of OBA content prints when stored dark.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots


I've only tested pigment based Canon and Epson inkjets. With metal prints I only tested one type as well...Bay Photo. So my test results are limited.

I do not have a big interest in this area. but I do have enough interest in finding out the limits of my media I'm working with.

Inkjet tests and other color imaging media are here;

http://fadetesting.tumblr.com/

I will post photos in a few months with the rest of the tests when the gloss optimizers are done. BTW. glos optimizer shows no signs of change. Seem to be pretty stable stuff. I was worried it may yellow over time.
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Iluvmycam

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exactly ... there is more than one type of “metallic” print.  If it is Kodak Metallic RC paper, it won’t perform much differently than other Kodak chemical processes.  If it is inkjet metallic, it should perform similarly to the paper types with the same printer/ink.  As far as dye sub, I don’t believe it’s been tested by an independent source yet, but according to available tests it will outlast chemical prints but isn’t as good as pigment inkjet.

Nothing surprising in any of the results ... wilhelm and aardenburg have already shown all of this with much more accurate and scientific systems.  You were surprised things faded?

Using the sun is pretty crude (I remember doing stuff like this back in the 70’s). 

Yes, sorry for the confusion. I was referring to prints made by Bay photo printed on aluminum.

BTW, very nice quality otherwise. Just have to keep in subdued light if you going for the long haul display.
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shadowblade

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Which one is the metal print? I can't find it on your link.

I've had one hanging outside for a few years (Australian sun, so very harsh sunlight) - it still looks pretty good. Not exactly a scientific test, though...
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brinked

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Comign out and saying "metal prints fade like hell" is not a specific thing to say as their are several popular methods for printing on metal.  Then you have different types of metal, different coatings, different inks etc.

I own and operate a Metal Photo lab.  I have ran this photo lab for a little over a year now and I do anywhere from 10-40 prints on a working day.

I have never heard of one customer complaining about the prints fading, and I have very very particular customers.

About 2 years ago I printed my first metal print.  White gloss Chromaluxe, using sawgrass pro photo inks.  Around this time I printed a 12 x 8 print for my outdoor partially covered patio.  When I discovered this thread it got me curious, so I went ahead and printed that same photo on chromaluxe white gloss again, only difference this time was I am now using j-teck inks.  Compared the 2....there is 0 noticeable fading.  This is in a covered area of my patio that does in fact get direct sunlight.  So for almost 2 years this print has been exposed to daily direct sunlight (in south florida no less) with no noticeable fading.

Maybe bay photo uses a different type of ink that fades more over time than others.  I dont know the answer, but the more accurate statement here is "bay photos metal prints fade like hell"
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hugowolf

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...  I have ran this photo lab for a little over a year now and ... I have never heard of one customer complaining about the prints fading,

Hmmm.

Brian A
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Geraldo Garcia

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Comign out and saying "metal prints fade like hell" is not a specific(...)
(...)I have ran this photo lab for a little over a year now(...)
(...)About 2 years ago I printed my first metal print(...)
(...)I have never heard of one customer complaining about the prints fading, and I have very very particular customers(...)

Well... that is VERY short time. If you did have fading problems in a year or two that would render the metal prints completely unusable even for decorative purposes.
I do agree there are different types of inks and surfaces that surely fade differently, but dyes always fade quickly. It can be a matter of months or a few years but I would be surprised if a metal print lasts more that a decade.
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Wayne Fox

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I do not believe Dye sublimation metal printing has been tested by Ardenburg or Wilhelm.  I am thinking about submitting a few sample to Mark at Aardenburg to test things like face mounted fujiflex and chromaluxe dye sub.

However, chromaluxe dye sub testing has been done, and you can see the report here.

http://www.bayphoto.com/metalprints/Xenon_Report_12_2011.pdf

Some things I picked up from this

Physical durability is an important component of longevity which isn't often mentioned, and here I think the dye sub aluminum has some real strengths.

Light fading is difficult to really pin point especially in reference for time.  Mark aardenburg goes into some detail on this and his methods reflect those opinions.  As such I think his data is useful in comparing things like this paper will fade about twice as fast as this one rather than wilhelms year rating.( or something like that, Mark can maybe elaborate on this or link information at http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/)  It appears this is more like the parameter used in the referenced test, and the conclusion may be similar in the statement metal prints will last 2 to 4 times longer than c prints.  The report specifically details how arriving at a time parameter is challenging.

some concernsI have with the tests.  It appears to be designed specifically to make metal prints look good.  This is more of an inkjet process than photographic, yet no inkjet prints were tested ... which would most likely have made even the metal prints look bad.

The photo papers tested are not mentioned. I can understand why, but the lack of that knowledge does cause some questions.  Was this kodak, Fuji, or mitsubishi one hour lab paper?  I've seen some pretty dramatic differences using off brand low cost papers.

Other than regular window glass (to simulate an indoor enviroment, nothing else was done to simulate normal circumstances. C prints for display are almost always going to be protected, and UV protecting is important.  i have 40 year old C prints which have been sealed with UV protecting lacquers, some of which were displayed for over a decade, that still look great.  I don't know how much they've faded, but comparing an aluminum print which is designed to have no further protection (and I'll admit considering that the fading characteristics are pretty good) against C prints which are also not placed in typical presentation fashion would seem to slant the test.

My main concern is the way the magenta color on the metal prints fades at a faster rate than other colors.  This could mean that rather than just fading, the prints may actually begin to take on a green cast. before they reach the mentioned fail point.  Maybe someone with more knowledge in this field could comment whether this may or may not be a concern.

But bottom line, C prints have done pretty well if protected and cared for, and this test does indicate dye sub metal may be better.

Now to find out how well face mounted C prints do if using high quality uv absorbing acrylic.


« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 02:28:36 am by Wayne Fox »
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Ernst Dinkla

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The red on the arms of one of my Tolomeo lamps has faded over 30 years, started way earlier though. Chemically sealed anodised aluminium but still dyes are involved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodizing  is good information on what to expect of colored metals in processes related to anodising.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots



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bgphoto

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Realize that with Chromaluxe prints you are not actually coloring the metal surface as in anodizing. What you are doing is impregnating the ink pigments into the polyester coating on the aluminum panel.


Ben
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