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Author Topic: Rolling Timeless on Lyve  (Read 3626 times)

dpirazzi

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Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« on: January 18, 2015, 02:32:45 am »

I'm printing a large pano on Lyve canvas (approx. 36"x120") on my 8300. It's for a friend, and I want to coat it with Timeless before sending it to him. He is going to have a local framer in Idaho do a gallery wrap.

I've never done much printing on canvas, so this has been a bit of a learning curve. I've printed some test strips and even after letting them dry for 3 days, I still get some ink coming up on the roller when applying Timeless, particularly when coating over the dark blue sky part of the image. Is this normal, or am I missing something?

I have read here and elsewhere that spraying Timeless (vs. rolling) is a better way to go, but I'm not going to do enough of this to justify the expense. And despite having worked in a spray booth during college, I'm not sure about getting an even coat over a 10' long print.

Any tips on getting that first coat on without disturbing the ink? How many coats do you recommend? I'm using the high density foam rollers from Breathing Color.

Thanks in advance...

Dave
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bill t.

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2015, 03:19:47 am »

Not all canvases will give that problem with the 8300 inkset.  But Lyve will.  And so will Crystalline and many (but not all) other canvases.

Possible solutions:

-Put down a dilute, thin primer coat as fast as you can.  When dry, that will protect the ink on subsequent coats which can be applied normally.  "Dilute" could be around 1 part water to 2 parts Timeless.  You don't want to give the primer coat time to smear the ink before it sets.  Kinda tricky, but can be done.  Try not to scrub the surface, or compress the roller.  The dilution allows the paint to spread easily, among other things.

-But a cheap HVLP gun, which will not cause smearing unless you totally bomb the surface on the first coat.  With Crystalline the first coat must be VERY, VERY delicate.

-Use a canvas that does not present that problem.  I find Hahnemuehle Photo Canvas 320 has no tendency to smear at all when I roll test strips, and it coats extremely well with my HVLP system.  It's now my preferred canvas for my few remaining customers who insist on the canvas look and I have to say I personally like the prints I'm getting from it, the gamut and contrast are very decent with a glossy coating, and the weave is not as ridiculous as certain other canvases.  And those 65 foot rolls are super good for production.  There are other 8300-friendly canvases as well, I wish I could remember which ones they are, but it's all a blur.

-A possible bad solution is to use Deft or similar canned sprays from Home Depot.  Those things will kill your brain and make you forgetful, so use a respirator with an organic filter, like the 3M masks that use the #6001 filter at Lowes and HD.  I used to use those for test strips, but found it was saner to keep a 6" foam roller wet in a plastic bag for quick coating.
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2015, 09:22:34 am »

When I had my Canon when printing on canvas I wound up getting a can of spray that I used for the first coat then used a roller for the final coatings. No smearing.
Mike
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PeterAit

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2015, 09:28:43 am »

I can't answer your question as I use an Epson printer and do not have the smearing problem. I will suggest buying your roller, etc. at the hardware store and not from BC. You'll pay about 1/4 as much for the same thing.
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bill t.

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2015, 02:18:30 pm »

I just noted that the OP is new to canvas coating, and facing a 36 x 120 inch print.  Forget the Timeless, use Glamour II instead.  Timeless is a good UV resistant spray with good stretching qualities, but it is has its own learning curve quite apart from the learning curve of coating canvas.  Glamour II has no UV protection but is relatively forgiving of user errors.  In particular it levels very well which goes a long way toward minimizing an uneven glaze across the print, and it does not present the "bubble problem" sometimes seen with improper Timeless application.

With an HVLP sytem a 120 inch long print is no more difficult than a smaller print, it just takes longer.  However, although I've spray coated a helluva lot of prints I would I would be challenged rolling a good looking coating onto a print that size.
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dpirazzi

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2015, 02:20:00 am »

Thanks all for the advice.

I think you have talked me into buying an hvlp gun, I already have a compressor.

What do you think about attaching a pair of 1x2x120" wood strips to the top/bottom of the print, then attaching those to 2-3 vertical 2x4s leaning against the wall?

I know what you mean about the cost of the BC rollers, I bought the 5 pack and with tax/shipping they were about $7 each. Live and learn.

Here is the image I'm printing, 17 Sony RX-100 images stitched pano of Miter Basin in the southern sierras.

Thanks, Dave

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bill t.

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2015, 02:41:07 am »

Nice shot!  Seriously!

It deserves much better than 2x4s, and that concept sounds like it would be right on the verge of tearing you print to shreds for no good reason.  Your two sticks would be very wobbly, you'd get a lot of vertical stretching especially at the two ends, and a lot of buckling in-between, and it just doesn't sound sano.  There are a lot of smaller two-stick prints in the showcase windows down at the mall, check out the problems with those.

120" is a problem, most substrates max out at 8 feet, as do stretcher bars, and 10 foot substrates and picture frame moulding are very special order.

Are you sitting down?  Your path of least resistance may be to cut it in half and gator-mount it as a diptych.  Or reprint it as two galley wraps.  Save the print you have now for when you have a little more experience with mounting and presentation.  I personally dislike dyp's and tryp's, but I'm told the art buying public eats them up.
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Justan

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2015, 09:23:17 am »

Some Melamine and laminate counter top materials are available at up to about 12’ on the long side. These are available at some big box stores and elsewhere. They are affordable and have some very nice finishes. Transporting and getting them around some corners is another story.

alan a

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2015, 02:20:49 pm »

Not all canvases will give that problem with the 8300 inkset. . . .Use a canvas that does not present that problem.  I find Hahnemuehle Photo Canvas 320 has no tendency to smear at all when I roll test strips, and it coats extremely well with my HVLP system.  It's now my preferred canvas. . .

Bill, or anyone who has used Hahnemuehle canvas -- what is the difference between Photo Canvas 320, Monet Canvas, and Daguerre Canvas?  To further confuse matters, there is also Hahnemuehle Goya, Leonardo and Canvas Artist listed on their web site.  I guess they have seven different types of canvas -- but apparently no type of sampler to see that they are all like.

NOTE -- The Hahnemuehle web site is very confusing.  Photo Canvas 320 is in the "Hahnemühle Photo" section of the site, and the other canvas is in the "Canvas Fine Art" section of the site.  If you do a search for Photo Canvas 320 on the main site, nothing comes up.

All of these mention coating, but it appears that this is not a coating like Breathing Color Crystalline that is intended, or least advertised as, fully coated and not requiring the manual application of coating.  It appears that the Hahnemuehle coating is a "pre" coating only??

And how does Canvas Metallic compare to the Breathing Color Silverada?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 02:39:20 pm by alan a »
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dpirazzi

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2015, 03:59:31 pm »

Sorry if I caused confusion, but the 1x2s would be for holding the print while spraying only! I'm assuming that a frame shop in Idaho would be able to do a gallery wrap 10' long, bad assumption?

Thanks, Dave
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bill t.

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2015, 06:17:46 pm »

Alan...

Have not recently printed on Monet or Daguerre.  They are both about 20 mils, and soft and supple enough to work in my 8300 even with its reduced suction abilities dues to high altitude.  Both have textures that are finer  and shallower than most canvases, that's something I like very much because to my eyes that improves print appearance in difficult installation locations.  The weave on Monet is the finer of the two, and the weave pattern is only slightly more pronounced in one direction than in the other.  It suggests a fine art paper surface.  I hugely prefer that to the egregiously strong, highly polarized, corrugated looking texture in too many canvases that cause serious appearance failures in a limited but important subset of installations.  Daguerre has a slightly deeper and slightly more polarized weave, but it is still in a range I could tolerate.  Both are relatively expensive in the US, and very sadly the roll lengths are not quite 40 feet on 2" cores.

I have used some Photo Canvas 320 and I like it a lot.  I think it's Hahnemuehle's "production" canvas product, at about twice the price of some others.  A relatively subtle, relatively unpolarized weave prints very sharp for a canvas.  At 16 mils thick it may or may not be challenging to stretch.  I only glue mount canvas and the depth is just enough to block the darkening effects of black Gatorfoam.  It takes gloss coating well, yielding a bright image.  But it also looks nice uncoated, a lot like a matte fine art paper, although the Epson hot and cold press papers have better blacks in their uncoated state.  When coated the weave resolves reflections to a "sea of stars" effect floating over the still contrasty image, rather than the more common "Bejing haze" effect that sort of dissolves the image to grey slime.  That's my #1 reason for liking it.  I like my pieces to be able to compete in difficult locations.  I often do two or more installations a week, and I just hate it when my work looks like crud on the wall due to, for instance, on-axis lighting.  For instance, if you ever install a piece in typical condominium with 8 foot ceiling, you can be sure there will be an absurd eye-height chandelier over the table that will wipe out every reflective object on the wall.  It also comes in 65 foot rolls, minimizing the frequency of loading hassles, and giving a higher useful yield between loading losses and end-of-roll losses.  And yes it has OBAs.

I have no idea how any of those canvases stretch.

Bottom line for all three of the above canvases...none shout "Hey Mom! Look!  I'm on canvas!" which is what I so dislike about so many current canvases.  You can print on any of those three and still hold your head high as a Fine Artist.

You can get sample packs for just about anything at itsupplies.com.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 06:37:37 pm by bill t. »
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bill t.

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2015, 07:14:35 pm »

Oops, looks like we've got crossed threads here.

Dave, I'll guess not many framers will take a 10 foot wide gallery wrap job.  A lot of framers won't do gallery wraps of any size.  You may be on your own.  You may even need to splice gallery wrap bars to get the required length.  Even if you could find them, shipping 10 foot bars might put you into the world of freight, where you will often find minimums around $150.

Justan's Melamine suggestion is probably the best.  You would need to use roll adhesive, glue will not stick to Melamine.  Or maybe you could wrap the print around the panel gallery wrap style.  You could mount folding handles on the back to facilitate carrying and for use as hangers, you'll be dealing with some serious weight.

With the gate down on my Tacoma truck, I can easily transport 8 foot pieces with just a little overhang out the end.  With a standard sized pickup 10 feet should be easy.
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2015, 10:10:28 pm »

Try www.ucsart.com for stretchers. They'll be custom, and as Bill pointed out, expensive to ship, but if that's the way you want to go, they should be able to do them.  I rolled Timeless matte on mine but it was from an Epson and I didn't have any problems - other than coating the almost 9' length of canvas on an 8' table was a bit of a challenge ;)
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Mike Guilbault

bill t.

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Re: Rolling Timeless on Lyve
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2015, 02:56:28 am »

Was just browsing the Utrecht catalog and noticed these hi-tech, wood/aluminum stretcher bars.  They go up to 12 feet!  Have seen these at WCAF, they are very slick with a tension adjusting system even art buyers could figure out.  "On sale" of course.  If you've got the paper catalog you can see them a lot better.

http://www.utrechtart.com/Best-Aluminum-Combination-Pro-Bar-Stretcher-Bar-MP-08909-002-i1005740.utrecht

Hey, WCAF is next week!  Learn all about framing and visit Peter Lik's numerous Vegas galleries.

For laughs, check out the canvas surface images.  Can you find YOUR inkjet canvas texture there?  Hah!  Hahn does come close, however.
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