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Author Topic: Doors and Windows  (Read 10058 times)

Ray

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2015, 12:02:20 am »

IMHO, it does not matter if the window highlights are clipped or not. This is a case where exposing for the mid-tones makes sense. Let the featureless highlights blow out if necessary. In post, one can tone map them where ever one wants. I would map them to white so as to have a full range image. If one looks at the JPEG and excludes the window, the histogram appears quite reasonable.

Regards,

Bill

Fair enough, Bill. If that's your opinion I wouldn't attack you for expressing it. I would agree that there are many situations in photography where small patches of blown highlights are not significant.

However, this image is called 'Doors and Windows'. implying that the window is not insignificant. Patches of white in an image tend to attract the eye, and this patch of white sky is right in the centre of the image, distracting the attention from the detailed and crumbling surroundings.

In my opinion, this represents a flaw in the composition. I'm also reminded of a wise statement from one of Alain Briot's articles, to the effect that every part of the image is important.
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stamper

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 03:23:51 am »

Boy, some folks got up on the wrong side of the bed today. Kevin presents a lot of his work. Criticizing, if you can call it that, a blank sky is perfectly reasonable. If that constitutes a personal attack there must a back story I'm unaware of. Besides, Kevin can "defend" himself,but isn't doing so I would note.


There is a back story. Ray "likes" to criticise Kevin's photographic output. He will no doubt defend himself under the guise of free speech etc etc but when it becomes repetitive then you have to wonder. Remember criticising somebody's output isn't mandatory. There is a choice to look and ignore. :(

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2015, 03:52:15 am »

Couldn't agree more. But the fact is the view is the focal point and as such is uninteresting.

Another day another shot.

To me, this is the key point about the image. Even if it is just a small portion of the image, the eye is led to the hill, where the interest (featureless sky and hill) is nill.

dchew

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2015, 04:45:02 am »

There is a back story. Ray "likes" to criticise Kevin's photographic output. He will no doubt defend himself under the guise of free speech etc etc but when it becomes repetitive then you have to wonder. Remember criticising somebody's output isn't mandatory. There is a choice to look and ignore. :(

Yeah, and this image was shot with an IQ180, so it presented an opportunity Ray just couldn't pass up: He could ridicule Kevin and the IQ180 all in one post. Note the use of ;) in his original post when referring to the "expense an sophistication" of the equipment. Doubled his pleasure. 
 :(

Dave
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amolitor

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 05:30:53 am »

I admit that I am puzzled by Michael's defensiveness. Who cares if it was overcast? Who cares if all the rings of Saturn can be made out in the sky in the  RAW file?

The picture as shown to us had a white sky. The only question is whether that is a flaw, and if so, a serious one.

Personally, I don't care. The sky seems a minor point. But I mostly don't like the pictures on the front page to start with, and this one is no exception.

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Ray

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2015, 06:26:52 am »

There is a back story. Ray "likes" to criticise Kevin's photographic output. He will no doubt defend himself under the guise of free speech etc etc but when it becomes repetitive then you have to wonder. Remember criticising somebody's output isn't mandatory. There is a choice to look and ignore. :(

Dear me! What confusion! As I recall, I've passed comment on just 3 or 4 of Kevin's photos in total, over the past couple of years. Is that excessive or repetitive?

One of them, an iceberg in the shape of a mushroom, I liked, and said so. I liked the iceberg shot because it really did look like a giant mushroom and was therefore captivating.

In this current shot I said the doors are fine, and they are. It's the view through the window which lets the image down, in my opinion.
Since this is a photographic forum, I'm under the impression that sensible and honest criticism of images is welcome. It is through criticism that people learn.

Merely stating that one likes or dislikes an image provides very little useful information. In fact, it's very easy to dishonestly state one likes an image, in order to curry favour or cement a friendship, which is not helpful to anyone who wants to learn about the ingredients of good composition.

In my view, when criticising an image, one should try to be clear as to what aspects and characteristics of the image one likes or dislikes, and the reasons why. For example, Telecaster writes that he likes the white sky in the image because it gives balance to the heavy midrange tones. That's fair enough. But when he writes: "It also draws my eye nicely through the door and then the window", I get a sense that perhaps his eye does not want to dwell on the texture and detail of the crumbling plaster and brickwork, and prefers to dwell instead on the blank sky.  ;)
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stamper

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2015, 07:38:43 am »

Ray you forgot the industrial shots which you heavily criticised. possibly too much? An image posted here should be visually critiqued and commented on, which you did. However you then downloaded it and put the eyedropper on the white area in PS to to reinforce your point about the blown area. That goes beyond a visual appraisal of an image and into nitpicking imo.

michael

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2015, 07:52:04 am »

I admit that I am puzzled by Michael's defensiveness. Who cares if it was overcast? Who cares if all the rings of Saturn can be made out in the sky in the  RAW file?

The picture as shown to us had a white sky. The only question is whether that is a flaw, and if so, a serious one.

Personally, I don't care. The sky seems a minor point. But I mostly don't like the pictures on the front page to start with, and this one is no exception.


Indeed, the white sky is a minor point, and I don't care about it because that's the way it was and it's largely irrelevant.

But Ray made it an issue, and I responded. Is that "defensive"? I call it discussion.

At issue here is that we all face the problem of white skies...very bright yet textureless and without colour. What to do? Well, if one wants to manipulate the image then doing a selection and pulling it down a stop or so will make it a featureless light grey sky. Any better?

Add a blue tint? Nahhhh. Paste in some clouds? Now you're taking. But what you'll have then is no longer a photograph but a photo illustration.

In truth there is little to be done about this type of sky, whether you shoot it with a IQ180 or a iPhone. The fallacy in Ray's point is that someone else (him?) might have done a better job, and the answer to that likely is...no.

Michael
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Ray

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2015, 08:27:48 am »

At issue here is that we all face the problem of white skies...very bright yet textureless and without colour. What to do? Well, if one wants to manipulate the image then doing a selection and pulling it down a stop or so will make it a featureless light grey sky. Any better?


Michael,
A pronounced grey adjoining a pronounced green, of hills and foliage, for example, is a very effective combination in my opinion. I like it.

If the RAW file doesn't contain any blown primaries in the sky, pulling it down a stop or so sometimes reveals subtle shades of tonality, especially, I imagine, when the camera is high res and high DR like the IQ180.

Even if there is literally no detail in the sky, a darker grey would be better than pure white in this image, simply because it would distract the attention less, from the more interesting, dilapidated, surrounding brickwork.
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Ray

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2015, 08:34:29 am »

Ray you forgot the industrial shots which you heavily criticised. possibly too much?

But what an honest criticism that was!  ;)

Quote
An image posted here should be visually critiqued and commented on, which you did. However you then downloaded it and put the eyedropper on the white area in PS to to reinforce your point about the blown area. That goes beyond a visual appraisal of an image and into nitpicking imo.

I downloaded the image merely to confirm that the sky really was blown, before making my criticism, and that it wasn't my monitor deluding me. My criticism is based on my initial impression. Got it?
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stamper

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2015, 09:38:39 am »

I think what I have got - and what Michael was alluding to - is that you have a large ego? :(

Ray

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2015, 11:12:20 pm »

I think what I have got - and what Michael was alluding to - is that you have a large ego? :(

No, Stamper. I would characterise it as a strong ego rather than a large one. A large ego implies an inflated ego, which is a vulnerable ego, easily offended by criticism, for example. Got it?  ;)
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stamper

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2015, 03:30:22 am »

Okay then, how about tactless and stubborn? :)

Ray

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2015, 07:00:31 am »

Me! Rude and inept? Don't be silly.

As for 'stubborn', I always give way to the superior argument, when it's presented. If it's rarely presented, that's hardly my fault.  ;)
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michael

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Re: Doors and Windows
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2015, 07:14:28 am »

OK kids, time for name calling is over.

Michael
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