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Author Topic: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options  (Read 14810 times)

mstevensphoto

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actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« on: January 12, 2015, 01:57:27 pm »

Hey folks, still evaluating choices. I'm not a machine gun press and hope shooter but the reality of shooting children and dogs is that I take between 120 and 300 captures in a session to show them 40-60 proofs. looking in lightroom I took 32,000 captures in the previous 3 quarters of business. with MF shutters rated much lower than my dslr (less than half) I'm wondering what real life expectations I should prepare myself for? I know that MF slows you down (something I really like about it) but still. am I looking at 10+ grand for a camera with a 3 year life?
MArk
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Ken R

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 02:04:50 pm »

Hey folks, still evaluating choices. I'm not a machine gun press and hope shooter but the reality of shooting children and dogs is that I take between 120 and 300 captures in a session to show them 40-60 proofs. looking in lightroom I took 32,000 captures in the previous 3 quarters of business. with MF shutters rated much lower than my dslr (less than half) I'm wondering what real life expectations I should prepare myself for? I know that MF slows you down (something I really like about it) but still. am I looking at 10+ grand for a camera with a 3 year life?
MArk


The 645z does have a large mirror and shutter typical of 645 SLRs. I would expect at least at 30-50k shutter life with 100k possible. Of course just because the shutter needs replacement does not mean the camera is junk. I don't know how much Pentax charges to replace the shutter but currently expect to be without your camera for 8-10 weeks during repair. Yes, that is how long it is taking Pentax to service the 645D and the 645z. They need to go to Japan for repair (any) so it takes a while for the process to be complete.
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ndevlin

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 02:23:53 pm »


Pentax itself estimate 100,000 cycles: http://645z.ricoh-imaging.eu/en/pentax-645z-stories-by-the-engineers.html

If you're shooting that kind of volume, the camera is paying for itself over and over.  A shutter-job is like filling the gas tank.

Assuming it is a shorter life than 35mm FF (which I don't assume), the slightly lower number of shots you're likely to take would even things out.

This does not strike me as a relevant consideration on whether to purchase the system.

- N.
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mstevensphoto

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 02:32:04 pm »

I would expect at least at 30-50k shutter life with 100k possible.

if I got 30-50k of an advertised 100k lifespan I would drive by ricoh's offices (conveniently located in my home town) and throw the damn thing through the window.
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ndevlin

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 02:43:18 pm »

Yeah, I think Ken is talking out of an orifice other than his lens mount  ;D

And a shutter replacement is hardly equivalent to replacing the camera. 
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mstevensphoto

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015, 02:49:07 pm »

And a shutter replacement is hardly equivalent to replacing the camera. 

yeah, been there a couple of times (shutter replacement). it's a good thing too because I think Ricoh is on the 17th floor and I could never throw that high.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2015, 03:11:58 pm »

Hey folks, still evaluating choices. I'm not a machine gun press and hope shooter but the reality of shooting children and dogs is that I take between 120 and 300 captures in a session to show them 40-60 proofs. looking in lightroom I took 32,000 captures in the previous 3 quarters of business. with MF shutters rated much lower than my dslr (less than half) I'm wondering what real life expectations I should prepare myself for? I know that MF slows you down (something I really like about it) but still. am I looking at 10+ grand for a camera with a 3 year life?
MArk


With a DF+ shutter repairs/replacements are provided at a repair center in the US. Also the body is separate (modular) from the back/sensor. So if your shutter does wear down at some point you can ship the body and have it back in a week or two (mostly depending on where you are and what speed of shipping you opt for), and in the meanwhile borrow or rent one from your dealer.

By the way, if buying a DF+ with an IQ2 back the body (along with the back and lenses purchased at the same time) has a 5 year warranty for up to 250,000 actuations.

Also with a DF+ you'd have the option of upgrading your body (without having to upgrade your sensor) to future Phase One bodies.

Doug Peterson

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2015, 03:25:57 pm »

if I got 30-50k of an advertised 100k lifespan I would drive by ricoh's offices (conveniently located in my home town) and throw the damn thing through the window.

A shutter's warranty or duty-cycle rating is never meant as an indication of how 100% of units produced will perform. It's a projection/average of how most units produced should be expected to perform. Premature shutter failure (that is a failure of the shutter prior to it's projected life or before it's warrantied number of actuations) is possible for ANY camera brand/make/model.

I have no knowledge specific to the Pentax 645D or 645Z, so this post is not meant to speak to those two bodies specifically. Like I said - this is true of any brand and any model.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 03:30:16 pm by Doug Peterson »
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eronald

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2015, 04:03:14 pm »

With a DF+ shutter repairs/replacements are provided at a repair center in the US. Also the body is separate (modular) from the back/sensor. So if your shutter does wear down at some point you can ship the body and have it back in a week or two (mostly depending on where you are and what speed of shipping you opt for), and in the meanwhile borrow or rent one from your dealer.

By the way, if buying a DF+ with an IQ2 back the body (along with the back and lenses purchased at the same time) has a 5 year warranty for up to 250,000 actuations.

Also with a DF+ you'd have the option of upgrading your body (without having to upgrade your sensor) to future Phase One bodies.

If it matters, I don't believe that a Phamiya shutter/mirrorbox will survive 250K actuations without replacement - but I am convinced that if Doug writes that warranty then he will make sure you get that repair or replacement. :)

BTW, on a Canon pro series dSLR, shutter replacement is one hour, mirrorboxes and shutters are AFAIK designed to be quickly replaced.  I don't know how the Pentax is built, but Pentax have been making pro cameras for a long time :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 05:54:56 pm by eronald »
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Ken R

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barihunk

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2015, 03:13:04 am »

Also with a DF+ you'd have the option of upgrading your body (without having to upgrade your sensor) to future Phase One bodies.

Sorry to be *that guy* but everytime a dealer mentions this I want to ROFLOL.

At USD$8500 for the *entire* Pentaz 645Z compared to the USD$35,000 for just the IQ250 one could go through 4 iterations of the Pentaxes including NEW sensors every time for every IQ250 that you buy. IMO the major advantage of MFDBs vs 645z/S2 is the ability to be used on tech cams and view cameras. But to say that one could upgrade the body without upgrading the sensor is  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? in terms of value proposition as an advantage to the Phase ecosystem.
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eronald

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2015, 05:03:50 am »

Sorry to be *that guy* but everytime a dealer mentions this I want to ROFLOL.

At USD$8500 for the *entire* Pentaz 645Z compared to the USD$35,000 for just the IQ250 one could go through 4 iterations of the Pentaxes including NEW sensors every time for every IQ250 that you buy. IMO the major advantage of MFDBs vs 645z/S2 is the ability to be used on tech cams and view cameras. But to say that one could upgrade the body without upgrading the sensor is  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? in terms of value proposition as an advantage to the Phase ecosystem.

Is the Pentax really still $8500, or has the price started to fall in the US?

Edmund
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Gel

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2015, 06:04:43 am »

I had a 40D that had the shutter die at 14k, a 1ds3 that failed are 60k but never had to replace the shutter on anything else.

A bit like DVD lasers, they can go at any time and could exceed the rating too.

Ken R

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2015, 09:33:24 am »

2 months to repair a camera? Perhaps there is an opportunity here for an independent company to fill the void?
 In London, Happyblad can repair Hasselblad H bodies and lenses very quickly. I dropped of my H4D for a new auxiliary shutter on the Monday and collected it on the Wednesday.

Yes. That is true today. There has been talks about Pentax / Ricoh improving service but nothing concrete as of yet.
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ndevlin

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2015, 11:08:36 am »

Yes. That is true today. There has been talks about Pentax / Ricoh improving service but nothing concrete as of yet.

Could I ask what this assertion is based on? Do you have a 645z? Has is it been in for service? What was required and what was your experience with it?

- N.
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Royce Howland

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2015, 11:14:29 am »

I had the unfortunate experience of two shutter-related failures on the same 645D, about 2 years apart. Both were repaired at no $ cost to me; the first was done under warranty. The second was out of warranty, but it was a situation of very poor customer service requiring some management intervention to get control of, as a result of which the cost of the repair was comped. Quoted repair cost was ~$1000 CDN in the first instance, and ~$1200 CDN in the second. Same body mind you, but slightly different work involved in the two cases I believe.

In both cases the 645D had to go to Japan for the work. The round-trip took 10 weeks in the first case, which I thought was unbelievable; this was in mid-2012. But it was a lark compared to the second case starting July of last year, in which the camera took 22 weeks to arrive back in my hands. While the 645D was in the middle of that 22 week run to Japan, I also had a failure on my 645Z and then a week later my 25mm prime lens came apart in my hands. They went back as well, and both took nearly 10 weeks to return, coming back at the same time as the 645D. This leads me to believe at least some of the issue was that my simultaneous service cases got balled up together and were batched for resolution rather than being dealt with each on its own & returned ASAP.

These and other Ricoh service experiences have painfully illustrated the extreme opportunity for improvement in service level targeting and service management within Ricoh. Right now, I love the system and still have no regrets investing heavily into it. It fits me to a T and I have no intention of giving up on my kit. But if I never have to deal with Ricoh service again, it will be too soon.

I should say I'm most likely a boundary case, and it would be unfortunate luck indeed for anyone else to go through what I've gone through. But if it happened to me it could in theory happen to others; other than the fact that I shoot in digital era volumes rather than film-era frame counts :) there's nothing unusual about my usage profile. So invest in the system if you like and want what it can enable you to do. But be prepared to cover yourself if the gear goes wrong, because Ricoh service is not even remotely operating at a professional level as of Q3-Q4 2014. Because I was mid-upgrade last year, I happened to have 3 bodies at the same time -- a pair of D's and one Z. I needed them, because 2 of them were down in an overlapping period of almost 10 weeks.

Still, as others have pointed out, the $ cost of doing this is at least approachable for people who are able to seriously invest in a medium format system. It's more the enthusiast or pro-on-a-budget who's at risk if they can't invest in sufficient backup gear to cover a major chunk of downtime while keeping on working.

Ken R

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2015, 11:54:01 am »

Could I ask what this assertion is based on? Do you have a 645z? Has is it been in for service? What was required and what was your experience with it?

- N.

Had the 645D. Sold it. No issues with my particular camera. Inquired and asked other users about service experiences and the answers were always the same, if you need to send the camera for repair, any repair or service, expect to be without the camera 8-10 weeks. Ask around, you will get the same info like the one posted by R. H. right before this post.

Wish it were different since the Pentax 645 cameras are really nice. Unfortunately it is not.
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ndevlin

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2015, 01:09:56 pm »


It will be interesting to see what kind of service programme they introduce for the "Z".  If they are serious about it, which all other signs suggest they are, something of substance is required.

- N.
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bcooter

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2015, 06:08:47 pm »

It will be interesting to see what kind of service programme they introduce for the "Z".  If they are serious about it, which all other signs suggest they are, something of substance is required.

- N.

Not to cut Pentax any slack on what seems to be a professional system, it would do them well to have a better repair system. 

Then again it's the only new larger than 35mm camera that allows most users to buy a backup without drastic pain.

Not that you want to but it's difficult to shoot a paying gig without equal backups or at least equal enough.

IMO

BC
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eronald

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Re: actual lifespan experience 645z and mamiya 645 options
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2015, 08:46:52 pm »


Not that you want to but it's difficult to shoot a paying gig without equal backups or at least equal enough.

IMO

BC

The OP already has a working kit; in this situation 10 weeks downtime isn't deadly but just an annoyance ...

Edmund
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