Cold weather performance with Credo & H5X

[douglevy]

I have an e-mail out to my friends at Capture Integration, but figured this was a, "More info the better" situation. Does anyone have experience with an H body and Credo (or leaf back) in sub 30-degree weather? I'm going to be shooting ice boat racing next Saturday, and will be using my Nikons for the action, but wanted to use the H for the portraits. The manufacturer specs list a lower limit of 32 degrees (F). Beyond the usual, "keep the batteries warm," anybody have thoughts? Thanks!

-D

[pixjohn]

I just shot in 27 degree weather the past few days with an H2 with both a leaf and phaseone back and had no problems. I kept the camera in a oversized ziplocks to avoid condensation until the camera matched the outside temp. I also kept the batteries in my pocket next to a hand warmer.

[torger]

No personal experience of the body (only a Hassy back) but I've heard people using the H system in at least -25C/-13F without issues. I've used the back in that temperature, so far no issues. Considering the Credo back I have not heard anything, which probably is good in this case. I know some instances of the Aptus series could have problems, but the Credo is an entirely new design so I would guess that it will work fine.

Almost all electronics and thus cameras are graded to only 0C/32F, but if good quality components are used and the design is good they always work at substantially lower temperatures. The LCD screens tend to get sluggish at -25C, but they work.

Keeping batteries warm is a good idea.

Condensation issues I guess vary a bit depending on climate. Here I can go from inside to outside without adaption (if the temperature drop is really large, than I let it cool down slowly in the bag for safety but I don't really think it's needed). When I go from outside to inside I keep the gear in the closed bag until fairly close to room temperature, I don't need airtight plastic bags, a closed bag is tight enough here.

[sailronin]

Not sure about the Credo back but I froze my P30 back after about 30 minutes of exposure in 6F or -14C a couple of weeks ago. It was fine after an hour in the hotel room. In addition to keeping the battery warm I'd keep the back warm under a jacket or wrapped in a scarf or knit cap.
Good luck.

[Chris Valites]

Hey Doug,

I know I tagged you via email but I wanted to share with the group at large:

The operating temperature range Phase One lists is their suggested range…but we’ve had customers go down to just above zero without any real problems. The usual disclaimers apply: we can’t guarantee it won’t have any issues, but when people previously have used the proper way to avoid condensation (the plastic bag routine) and ensure nothing gets wet on transferring it from warm to cold, you should be ok. The only thing you might visibly notice is that the LCD is slower to react due to the crystals operating below their nominal range.

Definitely keep the gear in a plastic bag coming in from the cold as warm, as warm environments tend to have way more moisture. People even run humidifiers in the winter indoors, so you can imagine the condensation possible there!

[douglevy]

So in temperatures ranging from 5- to 11F, the camera worked almost perfectly. The reaction time on the back was a little slow, but otherwise, perfect (on the Nikons too, those things are rocks!) Didn't even go through extra batteries!

[Chris Valites]

Right on! We've come a long way from the days of having batteries in the armpits. Back with the Mamiya 7II there was a goofy little extension for things like that so you could indeed have the battery out of the camera body and somewhere where you could access it or keep it warm. Weird right?

[Janice45]

No personal experience of the body (only a Hassy back) but I've heard people using the H system in at least -25C/-13F without issues. I've used the back in that temperature, so far no issues. Considering the Credo back I have not heard anything, which probably is good in this case. I know some instances of the Aptus series could have problems, but the Credo is an entirely new design so I would guess that it will work fine.

Almost all electronics and thus cameras are graded to only 0C/32F, but if good quality components are used and the design is good they always work at substantially lower temperatures. The LCD screens tend to get sluggish at -25C, but they work.  You can check them out and let me know what you think. I have seen these sold on many sites and I have bought them multiple times and I always had consistent results.

Keeping batteries warm is a good idea.

Condensation issues I guess vary a bit depending on climate. Here I can go from inside to outside without adaption (if the temperature drop is really large, than I let it cool down slowly in the bag for safety but I don't really think it's needed). When I go from outside to inside I keep the gear in the closed bag until fairly close to room temperature, I don't need airtight plastic bags, a closed bag is tight enough here.

Hi,
how can I keep the batteries warm? and isn't there a special kind of battery that works regardless of temp?

[douglevy]

I don't think there's any "special" battery per se, the chemistry is such that they aren't the best cold weather performing technology (especially lithium), but I had no problems with one hand warmer in a closed jacket pocket with all the spare batteries.

[Chris Valites]

The trick most people I knew used was to put the batteries in an internal pocket of your clothing. In fact, this is what Mamiya designed the external battery holder for the Mamiya 7II on this page to do: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/legacy_mamiya7_ii.asp

Just swap the battery in at the last moment.

EDIT: You can try using handwarmers wrapped around the batteries in a case if need be; I haven't been out in the cold enough to warrant that, but I think that's what Jimmy Chin did on his last Nepal trip.

[Plateau Light]

I have had awful experience with 4 different 50mp ccd systems. 2 H3D II's an H4 and an H5.
All have had lockup issues and errors.
Incidentally I have a friend using an H2 w P45 and he just keeps shooting away while I fumbled.

Now for the icing on the cake. I was teaching a workshop with a person who had a new H5 50 CCD in NY that had the same issues. We went to Hassy's HQ In NJ and talked to Paul. We got a cmos  H5 cam and it never missed a beat and I hear it is free of the issues. It was intimated that the CCD implementation is susceptible to column errors and may give the firmware issues when it happens to be problematic( in cold damp weather).

My experience is that the CCD Phase system is more robust in cold than the Hassy CCD but the H5 cmos ROCKS!!

[Ken R]

Condensation is a problem when going from a cold environment to a warm one. The warm air holds a lot more moisture and when it comes in contact with a cold camera/back/lens that moisture condenses on the surface of the gear. It is a huge problem in tropical climates when going from a colder climate controlled interior (car, building etc) to the warm outdoors.

In colder climates it is the opposite, outside the cold dry air is no issue but when going inside you need to protect your gear.

If it is snowing and the camera is warm the snow will melt on contact so that is another issue. Also in some situations the air temp and the dewpoint are the same and frost/condensation forms easily on all surfaces. Happened to me one morning at Maroon Bells in Aspen, Colorado, 32F air temp 100% humidity = frost everywhere (on the warmed up camera it melted on contact, messy)

[Chris Valites]

Condensation is a problem when going from a cold environment to a warm one. The warm air holds a lot more moisture and when it comes in contact with a cold camera/back/lens that moisture condenses on the surface of the gear. It is a huge problem in tropical climates when going from a colder climate controlled interior (car, building etc) to the warm outdoors.

In colder climates it is the opposite, outside the cold dry air is no issue but when going inside you need to protect your gear.

If it is snowing and the camera is warm the snow will melt on contact so that is another issue. Also in some situations the air temp and the dewpoint are the same and frost/condensation forms easily on all surfaces. Happened to me one morning at Maroon Bells in Aspen, Colorado, 32F air temp 100% humidity = frost everywhere (on the warmed up camera it melted on contact, messy)

I hear you on that. I have a large freezer bag that I take with me when I do landscape work, and stick the entire tech cam/Cambo/digital back into it before I get in my car.

Sucks on the snow though; I had one flake land on the lens when I was shooting, and stupidly breathed on it to try to wipe it off with a lens cloth. After icing the front element of the lens entirely, that was the end of that day's shoot...

[egor]

I can't speak to how the gear performs in extreme cold, as I work in an air conditioned studio, in Southern California no less.
But I have had to do several product shoots simulating extreme cold on the sets using dry ice (-105F and Liquid Nitrogen -300F) and learned that the operating temps for Lithium batteries is -20C to +60C (-4F to 140F) but their capacity fails at the cold extremes. So if I am used to getting an hour or two at room temp I can expect only 30mins or so at the extreme cold end of that scale.
Another interesting thing I learned is that the batteries should never be charged at less than 4C (39F). Charging the batteries at below 39F can cause permanent damage to the batteries and possible explosion.

[Chris Valites]

Battery chemistry is one of the biggest issues of cold weather photography. All batteries do is create a chemical reaction, and the colder it gets, the slower that reaction becomes, as less current is able to be generated. As batteryuniversity.com says:

Lithium-ion works within the discharge temperature limits of -20°C to 60°C (-4°F to 140°F). The performance is temperature based, meaning that the rate capability at or below -20°C is reduced due to the increased impedance of the electrolyte. Discharging at low temperatures does not harm the battery. Lithium-ion may be used down to -30°C (-22°F) with acceptable results. Larger packs will be necessary to compensate for the reduced capacity at these temperatures.