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Author Topic: Je suis Charlie  (Read 27591 times)

mbaginy

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2015, 08:59:47 am »

The world would be better and safer if everyone could learn and practice tolerance, respect and keep an open mind, hoping to learn from others and their differing views.  Humanity has never seen that ideal society and probably never will.  War and (various types of) terrorism seem a (major?) factor of human nature.

While understanding the motivation behind such atrocities can help us understand human behavior, we will never come to consensus as to the causes.  We are individuals and different (except that one guy in The Life of Brian) and that is a good thing.  We must all learn tolerance.

If more persons react radially when they feel offended, even this forum could lose a number of members.  Always a loss.
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mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2015, 09:28:27 am »

The world would be better and safer if everyone could learn and practice tolerance, respect and keep an open mind, hoping to learn from others and their differing views. We must all learn tolerance.


Who is 'we'? On the continuum of 'people who need to be more tolerant', where do these bloodthirsty killers lie?
Limp platitudes and entreaties about peace, freedom and tolerance are worthless when there is wanton slaughter on the streets, in the offices, schools and cafes of Paris, Sydney, Peshawar, and soon....God forbid....a city near you.

"2000 dead in fresh Boko Haram attacks"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/boko-haram-deadliest-massacre-baga-nigeria
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2015, 09:34:29 am »

What happened was obviously 100% wrong. However there is a difference between the right to free speech and the right to offend?

Of course the right to free speech doesn't mean that anything goes. However, some dogmatic folk are offended by things that makes no logical sense, at all. The earlier fire bombing of Charlie Hebdo was caused by a so-called depiction of the so-called prophet by Kurt Westergaard that Charlie published a copy of as solidarity with Kurt. Why are Muslims 'offended' by that Cartoon? They claim that it was Muhammad himself who said that no images of him were to be made. And they stick to defend that dogma, even with non-Muslims.

Because they stopped thinking, they do not understand that Muhammad said that, because he didn't want people idolizing him instead of Allah. And look what happened, people stopped thinking, started idolizing the prophet and made his words into law, no (critical) thinking allowed ... Feeling(!) offended apparently doesn't require to understand the message or the reasoning, or maybe it's mandatory to not understand?

Another issue is that the principle of Secularism is not embraced by many religious fundamentalists of all creeds. Also, Western European countries went though "an age of Enlightenment", and many ideas from that Enlightenment formed a basis for the later French Revolution (that's why free speech is a big deal in France and other Western European countries). The fundamental right to question authority, also sparked a Scientifc revolution.

But there are those who prefer to remain ignorant, and feel(!) offended, followed by an urge to dictate that ignorance to others ...

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 09:40:11 am by BartvanderWolf »
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

mbaginy

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2015, 09:43:21 am »

Mezzoduomo, I’m not saying I have an answer to terrorism in today’s world.  But I understand that those examples you mentioned stem from different motivations, different groups of people, the crimes are all hideous but shouldn’t be thrown into one bucket.  There are no simple answers to matters as complicated as today’s global acts of terrorism.  There is no Axis of Evil as some simpletons want us to believe.  But the replies to such acts need to be well planned and must have a goal – not only a short-term one.  Far to many reactions have effects which outlive the term of office of the leader(s) initiating them.

I wish I had answers, I wish there was a wise old man or an oracle who had correct answers.  But I read too much hate and blindness in some responses.  That will never solve any problems, immediate or for the future.
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stamper

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2015, 09:48:33 am »

I am now wondering how long it is till the thread gets locked? Hopefully it can remain civilised?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2015, 09:51:01 am »

I am now wondering how long it is till the thread gets locked? Hopefully it can remain civilised?

Define civilized ..., nobody posted any cartoons that others might feel to be offending, yet.
Although Slobodan's posted cartoon was undoubtedly borderline, to some ...

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 09:58:52 am by BartvanderWolf »
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mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2015, 09:51:48 am »

But I understand that those examples you mentioned stem from different motivations, different groups of people, the crimes are all hideous but shouldn’t be thrown into one bucket. 

I agree that there are no easy answers. But as to your statement above, I would only suggest that according to all the perpetrators...there IS a common bucket, a common motivation: Islamist Fundamentalism.
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2015, 09:59:38 am »

There were two French police officers killed too. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Clarissa

mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2015, 10:07:16 am »

There were two French police officers killed too. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Clarissa

+1.
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Gulag

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2015, 11:23:00 am »

Craig Paul Roberts,  who is a former member of Washington insiders and power elite, observes from totally different perspectives, disagrees with the narratives spoon-fed by MSM and argues on his blog:

There are two ways to look at the alleged terrorist attack on the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

One is that in the English speaking world, or much of it, the satire would have been regarded as “hate speech,” and the satirists arrested. But in France Muslims are excluded from the privileged category, took offense at the satire, and retaliated.

Why would Muslims bother? By now Muslims must be accustomed to Western hypocrisy and double standards. Little doubt that Muslims are angry that they do not enjoy the protections other minorities receive, but why retaliate for satire but not for France’s participation in Washington’s wars against Muslims in which hundreds of thousands have died? Isn’t being killed more serious than being satirized?

Another way of seeing the attack is as an attack designed to shore up France’s vassal status to Washington…France is suffering from the Washington-imposed sanctions against Russia. Shipyards are impacted from being unable to deliver Russian orders due to France’s vassalage status to Washington, and other aspects of the French economy are being adversely impacted by sanctions that Washington forced its NATO puppet states to apply to Russia.

[…]

The Roman question is always: Who benefits? The answer is: Not France, not Muslims, but US world hegemony. US hegemony over the world is what the CIA supports. US world hegemony is the neoconservative-imposed foreign policy of the US.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/01/08/charlie-hebdo-tsarnaevs-trial-qui-bono/
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 11:24:35 am by Gulag »
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Gulag

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2015, 11:31:26 am »

Ben was right, but it's not the thinking that's the problem, it's the not thinking of fundamentalists that is the problem. Thinking stops where dogmas start. And it's not limited to religion ...

Cheers,
Bart

Adorno says it better than Franklin, "The poor are prevented from thinking by the discipline of others, the rich by their own."
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"Photography is our exorcism. Primitive society had its masks, bourgeois society its mirrors. We have our images."

— Jean Baudrillard

Manoli

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2015, 11:37:49 am »

There were two French police officers killed too. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Clarissa

Three.
#jesuispolicier
#jesuisclarissa
#jesuisfranck
#jesuisahmed

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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2015, 11:57:05 am »

One is that in the English speaking world, or much of it, the satire would have been regarded as “hate speech,” and the satirists arrested.

Not in England, and I suspect not in America either.

Another way of seeing the attack is as an attack designed to shore up France’s vassal status to Washington…

Yes, quite. It's hard to imagine a couple of French Islamic fanatics having any other motive for mass murder, isn't it, really?

Jeremy

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2015, 12:38:35 pm »

... It's hard to imagine a couple of French Islamic fanatics having any other motive for mass murder, isn't it, really?...

Ah, Jeremy, my good mate, you didn't get it... It wasn't them, it was CIA dressed as them, you see, practicing for months to shout "Allah Akbar" without a Yankee accent  ;)

Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2015, 01:04:04 pm »


The problem is not one particular religion.

To paraphrase Sir Peter Medawar, "before deceiving others you must have taken great pains to deceive yourself." 

graeme

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2015, 01:26:50 pm »

+1 to Manoli, Slobo, David, RSL...everyone, actually.

The word is that one of the 2 brothers had an apartment full of child porn. Like the 9/11 perpetrators with their Vegas whores on 9/10. It's a death cult, hiding behind all manner of obfuscation, hypocrisy, false piety, misogyny, fraud, etc.

Here's a link to the some of the 'offending' Charlie Hebdo cartoons:
http://islamversuseurope.blogspot.com/2012/09/charlie-hebdo-to-publish-new-mohammed.html


It would be interesting to see the response if a version of the 'And my buttocks, you like them, my buttocks?' cartoon depicting Christ was printed in a magazine in a Christian Fundamentalist part of the USA. ( Or a version depicting The Virgin Mary in Latin America ).

It's also interesting to ask yourself what the young guys ( and it's almost always young guys ) who carry out these attacks or join ISIS, Al Quaeda etc would be doing otherwise: Probably working in a low paid factory job or the family shop in a dull provincial town. Joining these organisations can bring them adventure, power & status which they'd never achieve otherwise. Western youth has the safety valve of  being able to join a death metal band, spend a summer partying in Ibiza etc...

My sympathies to anyone affected by the events in Paris.

Graeme
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2015, 01:42:25 pm »

It would be interesting to see the response if a version of the 'And my buttocks, you like them, my buttocks?' cartoon depicting Christ was printed in a magazine in a Christian Fundamentalist part of the USA...

No, it wouldn't be interesting to see the response... because it's been done and there was... no response (other than, perhaps, shaking heads).

As for the "buttocks" reference, it shall be understood in its French context, as it was a reference and a direct quote from a Brigitte Bardot movie.

mezzoduomo

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2015, 01:47:49 pm »

It would be interesting to see the response if a version of the 'And my buttocks, you like them, my buttocks?' cartoon depicting Christ was printed in a magazine in a Christian Fundamentalist part of the USA. ( Or a version depicting The Virgin Mary in Latin America ).


There's plenty of stuff around the US that many Christians (and others) find offensive. Piss Christ might be one of the more notorious, due to Federal funding. But there's loads more, easily found online.  Side note: The gutless AP has recently taken down images of Piss Christ, due to....what, exactly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

We know what the response is to this sort of thing whenever its aimed at anyone except extreme Muslims. A few speeches, maybe the odd boycott, and nothing more. Its ok to ridicule and 'blaspheme' Christianity, because Christians largely do nothing about it. Nobody dies, that's for sure.

Try being 'blasphemous' (against Islam, of course) in Pakistan
http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/11/05/361740085/christian-couple-killed-by-mob-in-latest-pakistan-blasphemy-case
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2015, 02:19:51 pm »

... Fundamentalist Christianity is every bit as evil and dangerous as fundamentalist Islam...

My own sense of public decorum, the rules of this forum, and the sheer respect I have for its owners, prevent me from saying what I really think of that statement.

Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Je suis Charlie
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2015, 02:26:39 pm »

My own sense of public decorum, the rules of this forum, and the sheer respect I have for its owners, prevent me from saying what I really think of that statement.

You can always outsource it -

http://youtu.be/Xj58TavOIqg
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