Je suis Charlie

[mezzoduomo]

And while dishing out question marks perhaps you could actually answer the question posed, or address the issue of 409 deaths attributed to guns already this year in the States. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

However, if you really wish to bring allegations of sexual abuse into this then maybe it's worth pointing out that race or religion is not always a determining factor in such tragic cases -

1) The whole 'American guns' deal clearly has no relation to this topic, but: Maybe, just maybe there hasn't yet been a Sydney cafe or Paris-type incident in, say...Dallas or Phoenix...because there's a decent likelihood that somebody present would be more immediately able to shoot back. Unarmed cops in Paris? Please. Unarmed soldiers at Ft Hood? Please.

2) You know, you're right. Sexual abuse is always horrible and knows no racial or religious divide. But its seems even worse when perpetrated by someone who professes piety, like an abusive Catholic priest, or a jihadi who is up to his neck in porn, whilst advising demanding that every woman be totally covered in public, etc.

[Jonathan Wienke]

1) The whole 'American guns' deal clearly has no relation to this topic, but: Maybe, just maybe there hasn't yet been a Sydney cafe or Paris-type incident in, say...Dallas or Phoenix...because there's a decent likelihood that somebody present would be more immediately able to shoot back. Unarmed cops in Paris? Please. Unarmed soldiers at Ft Hood? Please.

There's good data to support that argument. Note that with maybe one or two exceptions, every mass shooting in the US in the last 20 years or so has happened in a so-called "gun free" zone where the average citizen is not allowed to possess firearms. A few days after the Colorado theater shooting, some moron tried to copycat at a theater in Texas. He managed to wound one other person before he was shot by a female patron who was legally carrying a conccealed handgun.

[Jonathan Wienke]

I'm afraid I've just got to step in here - but not just for this post. I have wider concerns.

There are no Muslim "enclaves" in Britain - and the kind of highly-charged crap that Steven Emerson recently came out with on Fox News deserves all the ridicule it got. Sometimes you just have to thank whatever God there may be for the Brummie sense of humour. http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/12/fox-news-expert-ridiculed-over-birmingham-is-totally-muslim-city-claims

None of the links I cited were from Fox news, and David Cameron as well as numerous local officials have admitted that over 1000 girls were sexually assaulted by Muslim men of Pakistani descent in Rotherham, and little was done because nobody wanted to appear racist or anti-immigrant, and they have apologized for allowing it to happen and doing nothing. I doubt multiple apologies would have been issued if it was all just figments of overheated tabloids' imagination.

[Justinr]

There's good data to support that argument. Note that with maybe one or two exceptions, every mass shooting in the US in the last 20 years or so has happened in a so-called "gun free" zone where the average citizen is not allowed to possess firearms. A few days after the Colorado theater shooting, some moron tried to copycat at a theater in Texas. He managed to wound one other person before he was shot by a female patron who was legally carrying a conccealed handgun.

Y'see, the problem with that is do you ever stop to ask what would have happened if neither had easy access to firearms?

[RSL]

Jonathan, you're pissing into the wind. A couple years ago I was in the middle of a couple arguments like this, but I found the backwash not worth the trouble. There's no way to educate people who aren't willing to face facts, and the effort can be exhausting and frustrating. I found I had more important things to do -- like shooting pictures.

Let it go, man. Let the ignorant argue amongst themselves. Those who haven't been in combat will never have a clue.

[Justinr]

None of the links I cited were from Fox news, and David Cameron as well as numerous local officials have admitted that over 1000 girls were sexually assaulted by Muslim men of Pakistani descent in Rotherham, and little was done because nobody wanted to appear racist or anti-immigrant, and they have apologized for allowing it to happen and doing nothing. I doubt multiple apologies would have been issued if it was all just figments of overheated tabloids' imagination.

A terrible lesson learnt. As I have mentioned already, integration is going to be a long process and mistakes will be made. Tarring all Muslims with the same brush will only hinder that.  

As for the WSJ coming up with the line "Residents of this once prosperous English town....". Well, despite the subject matter I just had to laugh. The guy is totally clueless about the place and is relying on cliches to cover up his ignorance and fill space. The decline is from another era altogether and I'm not sure that everyone who ever lived there was prosperous, it was always a hard working industrial town of terraced housing and smoking industry, life was never easy for the majority, which is not an excuse for what happened BTW. It was rarely, if ever, accused of being some leafy suburb as he seems to suggest.

[Justinr]

Jonathan, you're pissing into the wind. A couple years ago I was in the middle of a couple arguments like this, but I found the backwash not worth the trouble. There's no way to educate people who aren't willing to face facts, and the effort can be exhausting and frustrating. I found I had more important things to do -- like shooting pictures.

Let it go, man. Let the ignorant argue amongst themselves. Those who haven't been in combat will never have a clue.

I don't know whether you have noticed but the vast majority of the west do not live within the services and so find it rather frustrating when others demand that they accept the strictures and mores of the forces. Perhaps it's time for you and J.W. to lay down your arms and come and join us.

[Jonathan Wienke]

Y'see, the problem with that is do you ever stop to ask what would have happened if neither had easy access to firearms?

What if they gave an orgy and nobody came?

If guns were un-invented, then the argument would devolve to swords and knives. And of those were un-invented, then it would switch to clubs, sticks, and big rocks.

Outlawing weapons does not stop criminals from possessing and using firearms to commit crimes. It only has the effect of disarming the law-abiding so they are more vulnerable to armed criminals. Which is why the vast majority of mass shootings happen in "gun-free" zones where it is illegal for normal people to have weapons.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Justin, my friend, whatever you are smoking, pass it on, mate! Who wouldn't want to live in your happy-go-lucky, rosy-colored world, with flowers and unicorns?

[Manoli]

Outlawing weapons does not stop criminals from possessing and using firearms to commit crimes.

That is true.

It only has the effect of disarming the law-abiding so they are more vulnerable to armed criminals. Which is why the vast majority of mass shootings happen in "gun-free" zones where it is illegal for normal people to have weapons.

I then wonder how the gun crime and 'mass shooting' statistics of the USA compare to those of Europe ?

[mezzoduomo]

6 Jan: Paris is a gun-free utopia.
7 Jan: Not so much.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Can we please not sidetrack this debate into guns and America!?

[Justinr]

Justin, my friend, whatever you are smoking, pass it on, mate! Who wouldn't want to live in your happy-go-lucky, rosy-colored world, with flowers and unicorns?

I wouldn't agree that it is as quite as comfortable as you suggest, but having lived a few months in the North Americas I am distinctly aware that the cultural gap is wide and shows little sign of closing.

[PhotoEcosse]

Surely it is time for us to stop arguing and seeking recriminations. If the remaining cartoonist on Charlie Hebdo can be as forgiving as this, surely that is a measure of how "big" he/she really is. How many of us would have been big enough to forgive the terrorists who slaughtered our colleagues?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Well that's a new one. The crusades! Not come across that being used by anyone before to justify anything. Who dragged those into the argument?

J.K. Rolling, for instance.

You got to love it when they have to go that far back to find an argument against Murdoch.

[RSL]

I don't know whether you have noticed but the vast majority of the west do not live within the services and so find it rather frustrating when others demand that they accept the strictures and mores of the forces.

I'll kick myself for answering this one, Justin, but what you're saying explains exactly why the vast majority of the West hasn't a clue. By the middle of the 1900's the vast majority of men had lived within the "services" long enough to have developed a reasonably high degree of self discipline. That's all been washed away, as you're demonstrating.

[Manoli]

Can we please not sidetrack this debate into guns and America!?

If you want to forward this debate, then best not to advance fallacious straw-man arguments.

[Justinr]

Can we please not sidetrack this debate into guns and America!?

The genuine difficulty we have here in the old world is that we are so often the recipients of the kind advice proffered, even here on this forum, on how we should arrange our lives and order our society. There have been twelve deaths in France due to terrorist activity, which is deeply saddening, but thankfully still a rather rare occurrence. Yet we look across to the Atlantic and note in some disbelief that over 12,000 Americans were slaughtered by their own people last year! Is it any wonder some may think it legitimate to consider the possibility of double standards being involved?

[Justinr]

I'll kick myself for answering this one, Justin, but what you're saying explains exactly why the vast majority of the West hasn't a clue. By the middle of the 1900's the vast majority of men had lived within the "services" long enough to have developed a reasonably high degree of self discipline. That's all been washed away, as you're demonstrating.

And most of them had managed to leave it behind. My old headmaster was a tank commander at Normandy BTW, and would have railed very strongly against any movement directed against any faith.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

If you want to forward this debate, then best not to advance fallacious straw-man arguments.

Huh!? If I did, then address that, not guns.