Print Margin for 17x22 paper

[cortlander]

I have been trying different margins on 17x22 paper:

1.0 inch all around resulting in 15in x 20in printed area
1.5 inch -> 14in x 19in
2.0 inch -> 13in x 18in

I have not been able to decide which one looks the best or is the most acceptable.
I saw in Jeff Schewe's 'The Digital Print' workflow example a 13x18 centered on a 17x22

So I am curious as to what size margin do those who print on 17x22 favor?
I did ask this question in another forum, and 1 to 1.5 inch seemed the favored margin in a 13x19 paper.

Thanks and enjoy the rest of your evening.

[Telecaster]

For me it depends. For unframed prints—mounted on foam core or just tacked up—and a 4:3 aspect ratio I go with 15x20" max. This is nice 'cuz it leaves a uniform 1" border with no trimming needed. I don't like borderless unframed prints…ugh. YMMV of course. With framed prints I prefer a smaller image area and a healthy-sized matte: 12" max image size in the long dimension. Also, I rarely crop to a paper size. I'd rather trim the paper and/or matte to best match the desired print size and aspect ratio.

These days I don't print nearly as much as I did five years ago—I've become much fussier about what I consider worth printing (and my TV is a very good photo display platform too)—and the prints I do make tend to be smaller and closer to square.

-Dave-

[bill t.]

If you plan to ever slip your print economically into a premade frame, then about the only "rule" that might apply is that the border should be either more or less wide than the moulding, but never the same width as the moulding.

Holding this thought, If you plan to sell your prints you can pitch the ease with which they can be framed thanks for your border sizing, without further ado about mattes etc which for the most part are missing from framed photographs that sell for real money these days.  Just slip it behind the glass without any fuss and call it a day.

Frinstance here's an example of the last tolerable photograph that sold for a truly significant amount of moolah.  That white stuff is just bare print.

And you ever give a gallery bare prints to sell for you, give those prints a nice wide border so you can later cut off the fingerprints of the unwashed boobies that will riffle roughshod through your art, unconstrained by the gallery staff.

[cortlander]

For me it depends. For unframed prints—mounted on foam core or just tacked up—and a 4:3 aspect ratio I go with 15x20" max. This is nice 'cuz it leaves a uniform 1" border with no trimming needed. I don't like borderless unframed prints…ugh. YMMV of course. With framed prints I prefer a smaller image area and a healthy-sized matte: 12" max image size in the long dimension. Also, I rarely crop to a paper size. I'd rather trim the paper and/or matte to best match the desired print size and aspect ratio.
-Dave-

The 15x20 with a one inch border does make sense. Of course, my focus should have been on the print size and not the paper size. Thank you for pointing this out, Dave, and taking the time to respond.

Have a great day.

[Phil Indeblanc]

The way I do it would be to give the bottom a bit more of a lip vs the top and sides. Not even

[cortlander]

If you plan to ever slip your print economically into a premade frame, then about the only "rule" that might apply is that the border should be either more or less wide than the moulding, but never the same width as the moulding.

Holding this thought, If you plan to sell your prints you can pitch the ease with which they can be framed thanks for your border sizing, without further ado about mattes etc which for the most part are missing from framed photographs that sell for real money these days.  Just slip it behind the glass without any fuss and call it a day.

Frinstance here's an example of the last tolerable photograph that sold for a truly significant amount of moolah.  That white stuff is just bare print.

And you ever give a gallery bare prints to sell for you, give those prints a nice wide border so you can later cut off the fingerprints of the unwashed boobies that will riffle roughshod through your art, unconstrained by the gallery staff.

Thanks very much Bill, for your valued advice. I saw the frame in your link above, and am astonished that expensive prints are sold without mattes.

I am just a self-absorbed hobbyist who hangs his prints all over the house. I use the better Canson paper on an Epson 3880 and do not like to put any glass over the print. I aim to make the frames and mats the same size so that prints can be swapped periodically. So I use 24x30 metal frames with a 4 and 4.5 inch matt border and a 16x21 opening leaving a little between the matt and the printed area, the width of which depends on the print border width.

[Some Guy]

I print for the 24x36mm full-frame format and that puts me into 17x25.5 inch paper for perfect ratio without cropping.  Sometimes I add a 1" border to that.  Some special paper places will cut to that length too.

Problem I ran into was the last bit of 25.5" length paper often curls up coming off the feed roller and that bit curls up and the print head smears ink near the end white.  Sometimes the residual ink isn't much, just a light smear in some spots, other times it might be a drop and a streak in the border.

Someone mentioned adding about two extra inches in length to keep that from happening and it does help a lot.  So that means I need paper about 17x28" so I have to resort to cutting off rolls of 17" paper, reverse-rolling the stuff, maybe letting it lay around so see if it will remain flat enough and nothing like a edge curl occurring too with thick stuff.

SG

[cortlander]

The way I do it would be to give the bottom a bit more of a lip vs the top and sides. Not even

Phil, I will give it a try. Thanks.

[cortlander]

I print for the 24x36mm full-frame format and that puts me into 17x25.5 inch paper for perfect ratio without cropping.  Sometimes I add a 1" border to that.  Some special paper places will cut to that length too.

Problem I ran into was the last bit of 25.5" length paper often curls up coming off the feed roller and that bit curls up and the print head smears ink near the end white.  Sometimes the residual ink isn't much, just a light smear in some spots, other times it might be a drop and a streak in the border.

Someone mentioned adding about two extra inches in length to keep that from happening and it does help a lot.  So that means I need paper about 17x28" so I have to resort to cutting off rolls of 17" paper, reverse-rolling the stuff, maybe letting it lay around so see if it will remain flat enough and nothing like a edge curl occurring too with thick stuff.

SG

Hi, you have a great paper size. Too bad about the head strikes. This is how my 17x22 paper in 24x30 ended up:



This was a 14x19 print area - I am not sure if it is optimal and am going nuts over it.

[bill t.]

The way I do it would be to give the bottom a bit more of a lip vs the top and sides. Not even

Very good point.  Just to create the impression that a print is visually centered in a matte you need to cheat the image up a little bit, perhaps a few mm in a 17 x 22 treatment.  Otherwise an image or matte cutout that is perfectly centered vertically will appear to be be a little low which gives it an unattractive drooping feeling. 

However it's best not to have excessive bias toward the top as noticeably stylistic features in the framing call attention away from the image.  Other counter productive stylistic features include mattes that are deep as the Grand Canyon, multiple mattes,  etc.  IMHO.  If you ever want to see elegant modern framing, most museum exhibits of prints from their collection manage to look quite nice while focusing the viewers full attention on the artwork.  And that's from a guy who frames like it's still the Belle Epoque.

[bill t.]

Hey Cortlander, your framing looks great.  Life is too short to sweat the small stuff, and you're well inside the ballpark.

But to contradict myself, I would personally lose the outlines.  Simple is usually better, and the traditions surrounding the Bauhaus-ish thin-black-frame treatment invoke simplicity and eschew the merely decorative in a way that is contradicted by the lines.  The simple elegance of the image should be reflected by the simplicity of the presentation.  Good design is often a matter of knowing when you have enough.  And that includes writing.

[cortlander]

Hey Cortlander, your framing looks great.  Life is too short to sweat the small stuff, and you're well inside the ballpark.

But to contradict myself, I would personally lose the outlines.  Simple is usually better, and the traditions surrounding the Bauhaus-ish thin-black-frame treatment invoke simplicity and eschew the merely decorative in a way that is contradicted by the lines.  The simple elegance of the image should be reflected by the simplicity of the presentation.  Good design is often a matter of knowing when you have enough.  And that includes writing.

Thank you so much, Bill. It is the first time that anyone outside my small family has seen these frames, and it is encouraging to get a positive response. Thanks for the education on design.  Never having had any art courses such comments are helpful. I can lose the black border on the print. Unfortunately, the outer border comes from the black core of the mat whose opening was cut at 45 degrees, so I am stuck with it.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

[Phil Indeblanc]

Hey Cortlander, your framing looks great.  Life is too short to sweat the small stuff, and you're well inside the ballpark.

But to contradict myself, I would personally lose the outlines.  Simple is usually better, and the traditions surrounding the Bauhaus-ish thin-black-frame treatment invoke simplicity and eschew the merely decorative in a way that is contradicted by the lines.  The simple elegance of the image should be reflected by the simplicity of the presentation.  Good design is often a matter of knowing when you have enough.  And that includes writing.

I will agree with your contradiction in this application from the image above :-)

You're doing this once, and if this is the first sample, lose the double mat looking bevel black core line. There is no "line quality" you are trying to enhance with the mat. Just a clean window frame to look out at this nice scene.

[Telecaster]

The way I do it would be to give the bottom a bit more of a lip vs the top and sides. Not even

Yep, for smaller prints on 17x22" paper—say 12x16/18" or 16:9 & wider—this is what I do as well.

-Dave-

[cortlander]

Folks, thank you so much for the valuable input. I was a bit hesitant, but I am glad to have posted the photo. Without your advice, I probably would have gone and made black lines everywhere. Now, I will lose the border on the print, and use a regular white core for the mat.

So when is the black core mat used?

[bill t.]

Black core mattes are the logical choice for a collection of zebra shots.  Otherwise, I would limit their use to photos where I don't want the viewer to actually look at the image.  I will someday do a show of my worst photographs, where I will use nothing but 8mm deep black core mattes.

[cortlander]

Black core mattes are the logical choice for a collection of zebra shots.  Otherwise, I would limit their use to photos where I don't want the viewer to actually look at the image.  I will someday do a show of my worst photographs, where I will use nothing but 8mm deep black core mattes.

Oh dear. All the work that I put in cutting those darned mats...
I think I am going to go find a few zebras!

Thank you Bill - entertaining and informative.
Enjoy your day. Evening here on the East coast and it is Lagavulin time.

[Phil Indeblanc]

I like using black core on a lighter backgrounds when the subject that is dark is not in contact with the black core

It is great to frame fine art ink drawings.

When doing these mats, I take into account that the frame itself is already a step in boxing your work in from the wall its on. The rest should be more "transparent".

[cortlander]

I like using black core on a lighter backgrounds when the subject that is dark is not in contact with the black core

It is great to frame fine art ink drawings.

When doing these mats, I take into account that the frame itself is already a step in boxing your work in from the wall its on. The rest should be more "transparent".

Fantastic! Thanks very much for the insight, Phil.

[Phil Indeblanc]

best of luck with your project!