What is an equivilent or better paper than BC Pura/Elegance Velvet?

[Mark Lindquist]

Printing new portfolio(s) and find that being able to hand hold the prints (allowing customers to do so with white gloves) is effective.  I have done past portfolios with BC Elegance Velvet and have found ZSeries printers really like this paper.  I'm getting turned off by BC lately (won't say why) and am looking for papers as good, preferably better.

I liked the heft of the Elegance Velvet, and I've experimented with Lexjet's Sunset Bright Textured paper which is ok but not spectacular.  Hahnemuhl etching is not for me for this task.

Any recommendations?  Looking for a GREAT matte rag paper, no OBA's - museum quality,  Velvet surface, etc.

Above all, papers that are tough and can take handling.

Thanks - appreciate any suggestions.

-Mark

[cortlander]

Canson Arches Aquarelle Rag 310 gsm - great texture, heft. A fantastic paper!

[Mark Lindquist]

Interesting.  Definitely has the name behind it.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[cortlander]

Somewhat pricey, but looks good.  Have you printed a lot on it?  How does it compare to other Fine Art matte papers of museum quality?  Obviously the name is behind it - an understatement.... 

I have used Epson Velvet Fine Art and Epson Cold Press papers. I like the Canson AA a lot more. However, it is not a paper that a hobbyist like me can print a lot on due to the price. In terms of value, the Epson Velvet Fine Art is a lovely paper, just a bit thin. The other Canson papers that I use - Baryta, Rag Photo and BFK Rives are all very good, but the Aquarelle is the most heavily textured. It just feels good touching such a print.

[JRSmit]

Canson Arches Aquarelle Rag 310 gsm - great texture, heft. A fantastic paper!

indeed a very good paper. Alternatives are Hahnemuhle William Turner or Albrecht Durer. It comes down to personal preference for combination with images  ;-)

[Malcolm Payne]

Hi Mark,

I print for some very critical artists, and highly endorse the other recommendations here for the heavier weight Canson papers. I use almost exclusively their Velin Museum Rag (315 gsm) with a relatively smooth ('velvet') surface, or Aquarelle Rag (310gsm) where a more textured finish is appropriate. Also occasionally BFK Rives and Baryta Photographique for specific purposes. All museum-grade, archival, OBA-free etc (the Baryta does have some OBAs, I believe), and exude 'quality' in the hand.

I formerly used Hahnemuhle papers but found the Canson alternatives had a larger gamut, at least with my iPF8300, particularly evident in the reds. I also had two faulty rolls of Hahnemuhle Bamboo in succession (the original and a replacement from a different batch), so I have serious reservations overall about Hahnemuhle's quality control. Pity, as it's a nice paper otherwise.

The only caveat I have is that the papers can be susceptible to scuffing if handled improperly, visible as a slight 'polish' when viewed against very oblique lighting, but I suspect that's common to all similar fine art papers and is not specific to Canson's offerings. Other than that, no problems with normal handling.

Cheers,

Malcolm

[Mark Lindquist]

I have used Epson Velvet Fine Art and Epson Cold Press papers. I like the Canson AA a lot more. However, it is not a paper that a hobbyist like me can print a lot on due to the price. In terms of value, the Epson Velvet Fine Art is a lovely paper, just a bit thin. The other Canson papers that I use - Baryta, Rag Photo and BFK Rives are all very good, but the Aquarelle is the most heavily textured. It just feels good touching such a print.

I have tried Epson Velvet and Ultra Smooth Fine Art on the Z Series printers, and not able so far to get anything comparable to the BC Velvet papers - no where near.

When you say most heavily textures (Aquarelle) do you mean in a stippled manner like Hahnemuhl Museum Etching?

I'm looking for a paper with good "tooth" - a quality like the Epson Velvet but much heavier with huge gamut.

Thanks for your response -

[Mark Lindquist]

Hi Mark,

I print for some very critical artists, and highly endorse the other recommendations here for the heavier weight Canson papers. I use almost exclusively their Velin Museum Rag (315 gsm) with a relatively smooth ('velvet') surface, or Aquarelle Rag (310gsm) where a more textured finish is appropriate. Also occasionally BFK Rives and Baryta Photographique for specific purposes. All museum-grade, archival, OBA-free etc (the Baryta does have some OBAs, I believe), and exude 'quality' in the hand.
I formerly used Hahnemuhle papers but found the Canson alternatives had a larger gamut, at least with my iPF8300, particularly evident in the reds. I also had two faulty rolls of Hahnemuhle Bamboo in succession (the original and a replacement from a different batch), so I have serious reservations overall about Hahnemuhle's quality control. Pity, as it's a nice paper otherwise.
The only caveat I have is that the papers can be susceptible to scuffing if handled improperly, visible as a slight 'polish' when viewed against very oblique lighting, but I suspect that's common to all similar fine art papers and is not specific to Canson's offerings. Other than that, no problems with normal handling.
Cheers,
Malcolm

Malcom, thanks very much for your detailed reply - it helps very much.  I have been wondering about the Veilin Museum Rag.  When comparing it to the Aquarelle, does it have a smoothness like for example Epson Ultra Smooth Fine Art, or more like Epson Velvet?

Ideally I want a consistent toot but no deep texture or stippling effect of any kind.  Yet I don't want a smooth paper either.  What I'm looking for should have a lush feel to the touch.

It does sound like your recommendation of Velin Museum Rag may be just the thing.  It may be I need to try both the Aquarelle and the Velin and make comparisons.  You understand the allure that holding a fine print in hand has - it makes quite an impression.  I'm willing to sacrifice prints to make a sale.

JRSmidt - yes, you're right, the right paper for the right print under normal circumstances.  In the context of my portfolio(s) I'm looking for the ultimate matte paper that can handle it all with excellence.

Thanks for responding.

[bill t.]

From left to right, with the yellow ruler at the top:

Canson Arches Aquarelle 17 mils
Hahn William Turner 21 mils
Hahn Torchon 17 mils
Hahn Museum Etching 24 mils
Hahn Albrecht Durer 14 mils

Ernst Dinkla's Spectrumviz program has these papers in its database.

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[Malcolm Payne]

Hi Mark,

I don't know those specific Epson papers, but I'm guessing the Velin Museum Rag is more like the Epson Velvet - it's fairly smooth but with a definite tooth. The Aquarelle Rag has a more pronounced, traditional watercolour, texture and from your description is probably a rougher paper than you're looking for, though it suits some images very well. I probably use 2-3x more Velin than Aquarelle.

If you go to http://www.canson-infinity.com/en/velin315.asp and click on the thumbnail on the right side of the page just below the 'Canson' box, you can see an enlarged view of the texture, similarly for the Aquarelle, BFK Rives etc. Canson describe the Rives as having a 'smooth and velvety' texture. The Velin is broadly similar to the Rives overall, still quite smooth but with perhaps a more regular texture than the latter - it's also slightly cheaper. You might also take a look at their Edition Etching Rag, though I haven't used that one. If you have a good supplier, you ought to be able to get hold of a printed swatch book and/or sample pack - the swatches are only A5, with a smaller print sample, and it's not always easy to tell exactly how that will translate to a full-size print.

I've been very happy with the Canson papers since I changed from using Hahnemuhle six or seven years ago - their quality control is impeccable and I've never had a bad roll in that time, save for one with a slightly dented end that had clearly been dropped at the factory and was replaced without question. The gamut is excellent for a matte art paper, and even the rougher papers like the Aquarelle hold fine detail very well.

The downside is that they're expensive - some 40% - 60% more than the equivalent BC Pura/Elegance Velvet in the UK, though that doesn't increase the final print cost to the same degree, of course, when other print costs and overheads are included. But I haven't found a better paper, and my artists appreciate and are prepared to pay for the quality.

Best,

Malcolm

[Mark Lindquist]

Malcom, again, much appreciated.  The two - the Velin and the Aquarelle may fill the bill for me.

Knowing this is a preference for many artists helps.  That's something I really appreciate about this forum, the interaction with pro's, artists, hobbyist's, etc.

That kind of feedback is invaluable.

Bill t -

Thank you for the photo and link.  Most helpful.  -Cheers!

[Mark Lindquist]

Hi Mark,

I don't know those specific Epson papers, but I'm guessing the Velin Museum Rag is more like the Epson Velvet - it's fairly smooth but with a definite tooth. The Aquarelle Rag has a more pronounced, traditional watercolour, texture and from your description is probably a rougher paper than you're looking for, though it suits some images very well. I probably use 2-3x more Velin than Aquarelle.

If you go to http://www.canson-infinity.com/en/velin315.asp and click on the thumbnail on the right side of the page just below the 'Canson' box, you can see an enlarged view of the texture, similarly for the Aquarelle, BFK Rives etc. Canson describe the Rives as having a 'smooth and velvety' texture. The Velin is broadly similar to the Rives overall, still quite smooth but with perhaps a more regular texture than the latter - it's also slightly cheaper. You might also take a look at their Edition Etching Rag, though I haven't used that one. If you have a good supplier, you ought to be able to get hold of a printed swatch book and/or sample pack - the swatches are only A5, with a smaller print sample, and it's not always easy to tell exactly how that will translate to a full-size print.

I've been very happy with the Canson papers since I changed from using Hahnemuhle six or seven years ago - their quality control is impeccable and I've never had a bad roll in that time, save for one with a slightly dented end that had clearly been dropped at the factory and was replaced without question. The gamut is excellent for a matte art paper, and even the rougher papers like the Aquarelle hold fine detail very well.

The downside is that they're expensive - some 40% - 60% more than the equivalent BC Pura/Elegance Velvet in the UK, though that doesn't increase the final print cost to the same degree, of course, when other print costs and overheads are included. But I haven't found a better paper, and my artists appreciate and are prepared to pay for the quality.

Best,

Malcolm

I did get both the Aquarelle and the Velin.  The Velin arrived with the corner bruised, so it will have to go back.  I looked at it and it's a little smoother than I was hoping.  The Aquarelle is as you said, perhaps too textured - it is way over heavy handed for my prints, unfortunately.  Expensive lesson learned there.

How about the BFK Rives?  Is it a little more textured than the Velin?  What would be the most like Epson Velvet of all the Canson offerings?

-Mark

[Malcolm Payne]

I wouldn't say there was a great difference in texture between the BFK Rives and the Velin - the Rives texture appears to be more random, and may be slightly more pronounced than the Velin, but the differences are so subtle it's hard to be certain. Canson describe the Rives as 'smooth and velvety' so, if you found the Velin too smooth, it's unlikely the Rives would be a significant improvement. Unfortunately Canson don't seem to offer anything with an intermediate texture between that and the Aquarelle, and I've never seen the Epson Velvet so am unable to make a direct comparison.

Other papers you might look at in Hahnemuhle's range are Albrecht Durer, though that only appears to be available in 210gsm, or the William Turner and German Etching, both at 310gsm. I haven't used any of these specific papers, and have no experience with papers from any of the other major manufacturers, so can't really offer any further advice, I'm afraid. Good luck with your search, anyway!

Cheers,

Malcolm

[dchew]

Mark,
Somehow I got two sample packs here of the Canson papers. It has the Velin 250 and the BFK 310. Assuming the surface of the 250 is the same as its 315 cousin, they are quite similar as Malcolm said. But I would say BFK has slightly more texture. Where Velin seems to be primarily a recessed texture, BFK has high and low points. Not sure that description makes any sense but...

I used to have some Epson VFA here but it is all gone now so I am going frame memory, but both of these seem to have a less "uniform" texture than VFA. I too liked that paper texture but it was too thin for my taste.

I am confused in regards to Aquarelle. There are two in this pack: Arches Aquarelle 240 and Montval Aquarelle 310. They are very different in texture and color. Which Aquarelle did you get? It sounds like you were describing what I see in the Arches 240. The Montval Aquarelle actually reminds me of VFA, or at least what I can remember

Here is an attempt. Sorry for the bad iPad photo. L to R [edit: or bottom to top if the image doesn't rotate]
Montval Aquarelle 310
Arches Aquarelle 240
BFK Rives 310
Arches Velin Museum Rag 250

Dave

[dchew]

Found an old print I made on VFA. My memory is bad. Its surface is much more like BFK Rives. Again, L to R:
Montval Aquarelle 310
Epson Velvet Fine Art
BFK Rives 310

That's about 1-1/2" of paper showing horizontally.

[Mark Lindquist]

Found an old print I made on VFA. My memory is bad. Its surface is much more like BFK Rives. Again, L to R:
Montval Aquarelle 310
Epson Velvet Fine Art
BFK Rives 310

That's about 1-1/2" of paper showing horizontally.

Yes, that's it.  Thank you for taking the time to show me the comparison Dave - it's so helpful.

I have a box of BFK Rives coming.  It's expensive, but could be the exact paper for what I want.
Do you know, by any chance the OBA, longevity info on it?  Since these are for portfolio prints and will be handled, it may be a moot point, but I should know.

Thank you again Dave, and Malcom, and all.  It's gratifying to be the recipient of this kind of assistance.

-Mark

[bill t.]

It's interesting how relatively little texture the Arches Aquarelle sheets in my sample pack appears compared to the other pictures on this thread.  Perhaps that has to do with normal variation in the production of quality papers, or maybe the sheets are mislabeled.

Over the years have seen lots of gradual and sometimes sudden mutations of papers and their textures.  Have also seen sample pack sheets with textures radically different than the productions rolls.  The Silver Rag I'm getting now has nothing like the texture when first released a few years ago.  Could site other examples.

[Malcolm Payne]

Dave - interestingly, the Rives sample in your image looks as if it may have slightly more texture than the one in my swatch book, though it's very dependent on the rake of the lighting so it's hard to be certain. My sample swatches are a few years old now, so that may be a contributory factor.

Mark - sorry if I misled you at all on the differences between the Velin and the Rives in consequence. Here's the description for BFK Rives from Canson's site:

The world’s number one mould-made traditional printmaking paper, with more than 500 years of history and heritage is now available within the Canson Infinity Digital Fine Art & Photo Portfolio. B F K Rives has a unique pure white tone obtained without the use of OBAs and a very specific smooth and velvety texture.

This exceptional paper is ideal for fine art prints and photographs and gives them a very prestigious aura.


Product Features & Benefits
• 100% Rag
• Mould-Made: the finest and oldest paper-making technic
• Compatible with pigmented and dye inks
• Dries instantly
• Water resistant
• No Optical Brightening Agents to ensure consistency of shades for generations
• Designed to meet galleries and museum longevity requirements and respect the ISO 9706 standard:
        - Internally buffered to resist gas fading and maximise the conservation of your prints
        - Acid Free certified to avoid paper degradation


You can download the full spec sheet from http://www.canson-infinity.com/en/iso_album/bfk-rives.pdf

Longevity is rated as:
HP Vivera: >150 years
Canon Lucia: 116 years
Epson Ultrachrome K3: 72 years

Cheers,

Malcolm

p.s. I see Bill T. has just posted a similar observation on texture variations between different samples of the same paper, so any confusion may not be entirely my fault!

[Justan]

I’ve had great results with Hahne. Photo Rag Baryta. It’s my go to choice for non-canvas, non-OBA works and it works fabulously with the z3100/z3200.

When showing this kind of work at shows, I put the works in clear plastic bags, designed for use with fine art papers and inks.

Also, fwiw, while cotton gloves are a good esthetic and also offer some protection, the use of medical exam gloves of various materials such as those found at Costco are far less likely to leave anything on the surface of the art and cost less while still demonstrating a “this work is very delicate” esthetic that people love.

[dchew]

Do you know, by any chance the OBA, longevity info on it?  Since these are for portfolio prints and will be handled, it may be a moot point, but I should know.

No OBA's. I can't speak for Canon/HP, but it is very good using Epson AWB mode. Color life is less, but right with the pack of other good non-OBA papers. that may be due to Epson's known yellow fade issue.

Dave