Sony FS7

[Morgan_Moore]

Not been round here much.

Anyway just thought Id mention Id got a Sony FS7 - I like it.

The FS100 was nailed by thin codec, harsh colours and lack of ND.
The FS700 was nailed by thin codec but maybe had better colour and could gain a thick codec with the addition of the Odesey recorder and mess of wires and extra power.
The Sony F3 I had too was kind of cool but somewhat troublesome for getting nice colour - being sooo flat as to make everything look like a scandi drama -also to shine it needed recorder, mess of wires and extra power.

The FS7?
Onboard codecs up to 600mbs 4k/60FPS
HD up to 180 FPS with a softening above 60fps.

Slog3 is a flat look that is very linear and easy to grade especially as sony have now issued official LUTs that work really well.

I cannot say enough good things about SLog3 and the LC709 lut (that means Low Contrast - apparently a close copy of the arri alexa)

Add in XLR, ND, reasonable battery life on small batts and one has a pretty decent camera. The onboard power also runs the EVF too which reduces power/cable issues.

S

[Christopher Sanderson]

Looks very nice but at a high-ish price point.

Can you adjust the VF or the output to show a 'live' view of a 709 lut when recording sLog3?

[Morgan_Moore]

Its close in price to a D4 And very competitive to any camera that you need to buy filters, mattebox, sound recorder for. Sony cameras allow some video stuff missing from GH4 for example such as hot swapping media for infinite roll time, possibly dual media recording, and other stuff which has value to some.

XQD media pushes the cost up too- but feel more solid than SD cards!

Displaying LUTs is a bit of a mess.

You can display a lut when shooting SlogEI mode but the waveform/histo are lost (with current FW), you cannot display a lut when shooting in HFR (high frame rate)

When doing a controlled shoot I would probably use a LUT (which can also be fed to a directors monitor) but when shooting fast I find looking at a slightly crappy 'log' image and judging exposure using the waveform is better.

The trouble i had with LUT is they tended to allow me to under expose. Because exposing with a lut you rely on zebras at 95, but if you cant get zebra how far under are you?

SLogEI mode also allows one to ETTR using 'cineEI' which is faux ISO, very useful. You may visit video fora where people suggest sony cameras are noisy - not if you expose for 800ISO not the 'base' 2000, EI allows that and sustains the look over a LUT allowing 800/ETTR to look correct in monitor (cams like the F3 to go ETTR you had to view a very bright looking image)

Slog can also be selected in 'Custom' Mode but no luts are available in custom mode - custom mode allows in camera noise reduction which appears to be of great value above 3200ISO.

Learning 'best use' is a bit of a mission and it seems different set ups apply best for different shooting situations and post production workflows.

Sony now have a semi useful bit of software 'Catalyst Browse' (actually a radical step in terms of 'motion' software) that auto de-logs the footage, applies your EI/ISO selection and offers temp tint and exposure sliders.

it only took them a decade!

S

[Christopher Sanderson]

...
Displaying LUTs is a bit of a mess.

You can display a lut when shooting SlogEI mode but the waveform/histo are lost (with current FW), you cannot display a lut when shooting in HFR (high frame rate)...

It seems from what I have seen, that the Shogun recorder has got the 'monitor Rec709 while recording sLog' thing right.

But Sony is always 'correct' to themselves and don't pay much attention to competition ))

[eronald]

It seems from what I have seen, that the Shogun recorder has got the 'monitor Rec709 while recording sLog' thing right.

But Sony is always 'correct' to themselves and don't pay much attention to competition ))

Can the Odyssey 7Q+ do this too?

Edmund

[Morgan_Moore]

I don't know which monitor/reorders can display luts and record log at high frame rates

The situation is not ideal. Of course using a monitor that supports luts gets around it anyway.

--
The thing about this camera is that 4k and nice colour basically mean I don't feel i am shooting completely dead material
The images are good and that is not something I feel has previously been available in a non nightmare package

Red et all of course still hold the crown for images but are not easy to use solo.

[eronald]

I don't know which monitor/reorders can display luts and record log at high frame rates

The situation is not ideal. Of course using a monitor that supports luts gets around it anyway.

--
The thing about this camera is that 4k and nice colour basically mean I don't feel i am shooting completely dead material
The images are good and that is not something I feel has previously been available in a non nightmare package

Red et all of course still hold the crown for images but are not easy to use solo.

I wanted to get an FS7 for documentary work, but the launch color looked really bad. I'm happy to hear it's improved.
The ergonomics and the price with the lens look really great.

Edmund

[Morgan_Moore]

I wanted to get an FS7 for documentary work, but the launch color looked really bad. I'm happy to hear it's improved.
The ergonomics and the price with the lens look really great.

Edmund

Yep Den Len's vid and others had terrible colour.

I cant post much at the moment but that is what Im saying Sony have got right.. Shoot in Slog3 and de-log using the official Sony LUT and you get good colour and a file that flexes well in post.. Id call the experience kind of 'raw light'

Here is a headshot of a mate - shot Slog3 and brought back to life with 'one click' of adding the Slog3LUT.. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33167160/neel_1.25.1.jpg

Here is a video I made before I got the camera (using footage from another shooter) .. whatch me bend the files!

S

[eronald]

Nice image of your mate, and virtuoso demo of Resolve; but I still think the jury is out a bit on the FS7 color although the situation now looks much better than before. In a way it's strange how little sample footage is available for these cameras close to launch.

It seems Sony might announce some new camcorders in a week or so.

In the mean time, I will soldier on with my GH4. I'm a beginner.

Edmund

Yep Den Len's vid and others had terrible colour.

I cant post much at the moment but that is what Im saying Sony have got right.. Shoot in Slog3 and de-log using the official Sony LUT and you get good colour and a file that flexes well in post.. Id call the experience kind of 'raw light'

Here is a headshot of a mate - shot Slog3 and brought back to life with 'one click' of adding the Slog3LUT.. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33167160/neel_1.25.1.jpg

Here is a video I made before I got the camera (using footage from another shooter) .. whatch me bend the files!

S

[Morgan_Moore]

Of course the 'mate' image is not special but skin looks OK with a 'one click' grade (adding the LUT)

That is the thing that I go right back to my 2004 sinar Emotion.. the colour was there.. somewhere.. but without a good 'route' to bring it out quickly the cam was kind of a fail - the same was basically true for the Sony F3 motion camera, which also has great colour hidden away if you can find it.

The nikon D3 was my first raw stills camera that basically came into C1 looking basically correct- I have been looking for that in a video camera.

Nothing wrong with the Gh4.. if you like odd chip size, no ND, etc etc

S

[eronald]

Nothing wrong with the Gh4.. if you like odd chip size, no ND, etc etc

S

And if you like handbag size and low price

It's a strange object - you know it's not a "real" camera because it just isn't a "real" camera, and then you see the 4K video and then you fall off your chair. I couldn't believe it.

It's a good indication of where the consumer camera industry is going.

Edmund

[Morgan_Moore]

Absolutely. Great little cam - shot some shots on a film I worked on with one - Im in the market for a small cam myself at the moment but Ill probably get a BMC4k not a GH4.

Simply the BMC4k feels a bit more solid, with global shutter and SDi out to a monitor and 12V input which makes it work with the peripherals I have.

S

[bcooter]

Morgan,

Looks good.

I thought long and hard about buying one as I like the compact form factor, but I dunno I'm weary of buying new electronic stuff, especially as it comes out the door.

I've also had fits with Sony color on the fs100 though in the electronic world I guess that's very old tech by now.

I do think your screen grab looked good but what lenses are you using and have you tried the A mount adapter and autofocus and do the e mount lenses have any stabilization?

This is what I using now for "hand held" really shoulder mount or lower with the top handle.



It works but it has the ergonomics of a belt sander.

BTW:  My 2nd RED Bomb evf went out (don't know why as it was new) so I bought the zacuto for the interim.  Maybe it's me, but I find the Zacuto to be very difficult to focus, almost impossible.

The RED is a drag but it shoots a pretty file that is professional.

I have to admit I'm a little amazed that Canon hasn't been in front of the curve with their c series.    There used a great deal in Hollywood for B,C cameras, but not so much as an A cam.

Canon knows this and says they will up their game, which probably means there will be emphasis on $30,000 cameras rather than under 10 grand cameras.

Anyway, hope the FS7 works well for you.



IMO

BC

[eronald]

Canon knows this and says they will up their game, which probably means there will be emphasis on $30,000 cameras rather than under 10 grand cameras.

Anyway, hope the FS7 works well for you.



IMO

BC

I get the impression Sony was inspired by the travel travel industry where you pay 10x for leg and butt space: You pay 2x to unlock 4K on a camera that already has it (!), pay for the ports to allow data out in ProRes, pay to unlock raw,  pay for an external  recorder, etc etc.

The tech they have seems to be far ahead of what the market "needs", and so they're trying to maximize revenue by doling it out ...

I like their tech, I really do, but I hate this tollgate model.

What the camera you buy does has less to do with what it can do than with what it is allowed to do. What creative type is going to appreciate buying handcuffs?

Edmund

[Morgan_Moore]

Coots - I don't think canon are off the curve - their C500 is an excellent camera and has been around for an age - just I could not afford one - the C300 is basically the king of docs (I don't really get why as I don't think 8bit/$15k adds up!), the C100 is also a winner at the 'entry level'.

C500 is used as a B-cam because the Alexa is hard to get into tight places.

I think Epic, C500, all of them have a decent (aka good enough for a major motion picture) image.

Im not sure why you are weary of new Sony stuff - one thing is they work! Like the FS100 always worked.

The FS7 could do with improvements in LUT management but LUTs were not even conceived to be on cameras at all but used on monitors. Again the FS7 is struggling to talk to third party metabones canon adapters which is not really a design flaw. Sony may improve those things in future firmware but the camera as it stands will fire up and shoot every day I am sure of that - none of my Sony cams ever missed a beat.

As for the AF - I have not tested it - my expectations are low, I only own the 16 pancake and 18-200 sony lenses (mainly using manual nikon) and have not tried them thus far. The C100 (and now 300?) is the cam with the best AF I think - but AFAIK it is still centre only.

I am glad you stick with the R1 - my only beef with that camera is that I am too puny to carry it without an army of assistants!

---

Ed
I dont think sony are too far on that lock out road (nothing like the C100-500) - yep they fkd up with not putting 4k in the F5 and now charging for it but beyond that all the other paid for bits are genuine add ons.

S

[Morgan_Moore]

Here is another frame which is a bit more 'me'

It is easy to bend in post and critically to me allows the highlights to go in a pleasant manner..

[Morgan_Moore]

Coots - Slog is really psuedo raw - if you have not tried a sony camera with Slog you should give it a visit especially if you need a light weight camera with ND and sound. Any harsh experiences you have with the FS100 should be deleted in your head!

--

Both of you.

Don't think I am a Sony fan boy. If I had designed this camera I would have made a load of improvements. The menus suck, the buttons are badly placed, the EVF lead is too short and not replaceable, the body is too short and high for good balance - I have an endless list of things that I think could be done better!

But 4k 60p 10bit onboard, small batts, self powered EVF ND XLR and other stuff make this a king at a certain price/use point.

S

[eronald]

Ed
I dont think sony are too far on that lock out road (nothing like the C100-500) - yep they fkd up with not putting 4k in the F5 and now charging for it but beyond that all the other paid for bits are genuine add ons.

S

Look at the pxwx70, just out, 4K is supposed to come with a "pay" firmware upgrade sometime next year. The consumer version AX100 is cheaper, has it by default. WTF?
Same when you get an external recorder eg. Odyssey for the FS7, they make CD pay for the codec access and CD pass the cost on to the buyer. That way they don't even need to make gear anymore, just cash in whenever you try to get data out of their machines.
BTW, the guys who sold me my wireless audio gear told me the sound inputs on the cams are also crippled in some way if you don't use Sony audio gear.

I'm not complaining too loudly, I like the Sony cameras, but it is like a pretty stripper who has wants a tip to keep peelin'. I passed on the X70 although it was cheaper than the Pana, had a zoom lens and ND etc - I want something that does what it says on the tin from day one.

Edmund





[/quote]

[Morgan_Moore]

OK maybe you are right - buy as you desire.

Personally Id pay for upgrades - which is far cheaper then binning a whole camera.

S

[eronald]

OK maybe you are right - buy as you desire.

Personally Id pay for upgrades - which is far cheaper then binning a whole camera.

S

I guess if you budget them in from the beginning it's ok.
One just needs to understand the pricing model.


Re. Slog, Norman tells me it's great, but will completely lose your shadows past a certain point, irrecoverably. Is that your experience? How well does changing wb in post work with slog?


I'm sure there will be an miniaturized consumer version of the FS7 out within a few months at around $3-4K, that will be castrated in some weird way so that the pros don't use it. There is much more money to be made selling E-mount lenses to soccer dads than upgrades to pros

Edmund