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Author Topic: Capture One processing 645Z images  (Read 13397 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2014, 03:50:36 pm »

Hi,

What I would really like would be to have more parametric options in Lightroom, like a parametric version of FocusMagic.

Best regards
Erik


I'm glad to hear that. I was just guessing a bit, since I don't use DAM software myself. I'm old-fashioned, amateur and shoot low volumes and saves even less so an ordered directory structure based on dates has been enough so far, but it doesn't scale well so I guess at some point I'll need a better solution for that.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2014, 09:55:02 pm »

Steve, I see your point, but please look at this from the standpoint of a consumer.

Have you logged onto the internet lately and seen the amount of marketing that phase are putting into C1, I see more of it than I do from Adobe.  If I didn't know better and was an average user shooting say a Canon DSLR of medium spec, saw their advertising, took it onboard, I would think that they are a direct competing offering to Adobe (which clearly they are not if they choose to stiff the competition)

I would view their well promoted training videos, read Kevin Raber rave about it on this site, download the trial version, use it, like it, trial it and become excited to use it.  I would then compare it to Adobe and purchase a one-off license and away I go.  3 years in I would become more enthused and cash rich and decide to take a look at the Pentax MF offering at my local camera store and go "wow" look at what it offers for the money.  I can "NEVER" afford or justify one of those P1 systems, but this, this is nice!

After taking my $9000 camera home, taking some sample files and loading them into C1 I would find that it doesn't work.  Then I would spend countless hours going through forums like this only to find that I have to change to adobe, change my workflow, re-learn, keep an existing application running on my pc for my old already edited files.

This is not the experience that the consumer wants to go through, not when the company that has plastered their advertising across camera sites and facebook, touting their product as a competing product to adobe, when in fact its not a competing product. 

What it clearly is, its an image editing program that P1 design for their backs so that they had complete control over the file process from start to finish, only to have a company exec look at it and say "can we make more money from this and make it available to everybody and compete with Adobe?" yes they can but lets cripple every competitor in the MF space along the way, just to say "screw you" cos' we can.

And before anybody says, "well that consumer in question should do more due diligence before spending $9k", true.  But every camera salesperson (except for the great ones like you Steve), actually knows less than the average person on these forums and will answer any question with a yes to get a sale, its the way of life.

Any to top off my point, Phase should be more scared about loosing sales to Sony FE and Nikon D8xx cameras and Zeiss lenses then they ever should be about Pentax.  They offer support to these customers and they represent a massive market.  Phase are dollar grabbing where they can and stiffing the apparent immediate competition along the way.  Phase are more likely to get the future business of a Pentax 645Z user than they ever are out of a Nikon or Sony FE user.

The real world is so far detached from these forums and the consumer is far less educated than what we think.  I think phase are a great company for doing what they do with their systems, its just frustrating to see something mis-represented.

Rant over.  :)

NB:  the above is not a tale of what happened to me, I was already aware of the above when getting into my 645D and now 645Z


Scotty, I do want to consider the consumer viewpoint. But Phase One is guilty of aggressively promoting their product. Good for them. They're competing against a much, much larger company with a substantial market share advantage. Are they misleading consumers because a consumer may presume that any camera in the world that they would buy is supported by Capture One? Or maybe just the more expensive ones, the assumption being , these are professional cameras and Capture One is clearly a professional program. I get what you’re saying, I just don’t think it’s enough.

If someone owns Capture One, they do have in their possession a Read Me file that shows the supported cameras for that version. Most are probably familiar with this. Are there some that may not be and may assume every camera is supported? I guess so. But it’s like someone buying an iPod when they were Mac only and connecting it to their Dell computer and wondering why they couldn’t use it. Now Apple did certainly change that, but their target was an 80% market share. That’s not Phase One’s target. What I’m saying is that at some point, a consumer needs to take at least some responsibility. As far as those camera salespeople go, if you bought a camera that cost $9,000 and they said Capture One would work with it, I think you have grounds to take it back.

Raw support for Nikon/Canon and smaller cameras, including tethered support had been a staple of Capture One for years before Lightroom. It provided an “in” for Canon/Nikon users who were struggling with their mediocre raw workflow options, and in doing so, introduced these clients to Phase One the company and the higher end capture options Phase One offered. This is still true today. Nikon and Canon may be competitors to Phase One, but over 90% of my medium format digital clients also shoot DSLR. That provides far, far more potential customers than Pentax will. Users are going to buy a Nikon/Canon (or a Sony/Fuji) anyway, whether they also buy a Phase One product or not.

I just can’t see any competitive reason for Phase One to offer Capture One support to Pentax. Why address one of the biggest weaknesses of that product? Why not also coordinate a service/support arrangement with Pentax also, and address that? Why don’t they also offer Capture One support to Hasselblad? Why doesn’t Apple offer iOS to Samsung?

I want the best experience for consumers in the photographic industry, but I also look at the question of does it truly serve the long term interests of the manufacturer? It’s often a tricky and fine line. From that standpoint, I’m not quick to point fingers, I have to ask the questions, including how does this serve their interest so they can continue to survive/thrive? Would this strategy provide a benefit or a detriment?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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eronald

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2014, 11:00:54 pm »

Steve,

I think C1 not supporting Pentax is a very good thing. This provides a  lucrative potential niche for young programmers wishing to enter the market with a Raw converter.

With no C1 on option, anyone who provides results equal or superior to Lightroom will find buyers with an eye to quality willing to listen. And,  if I may be allowed to exercise first amendment rights to satire, surpassing Lightroom in Raw conversion quality  is about as hard as getting out of bed for your average 19 year old with access to the Internet :)

C1 is actually a pretty decent piece of software, written by people who know what they are doing, and it would provide a somewhat harder challenge to match for your average beginning programmer.  As a convertor, C1's  only real weakness is or used to be that it *sometimes* doesn't play well with its competition's cameras - as you acknowledge.

As a workflow solution, C1 is of course outmatched by Lightroom's  wonderful cataloging and print functions, and then Adobe throw Photoshop into their CC rental package, thereby providing "free" retouch tools that many consider considerably superior to the retouch functionality included in C1.

We will see if C1 competing with "free" all-you-can-eat Photoshop CC/Lightroom CC is possible in the long run. I watched Microsoft strangulate Lotus 123 and WordPerfect by bundling Word and Excel for "free" with every PC, so my guess is that Adobe probably has the winning hand, or rather the winning noose.

Which brings me back to the non-support of the Pentax 645Z  by C1: I think it is both a tactically sound business move as you argue, and also a strategic error because it allows some more customers to leave for Lightroom, and they won't come back.

Edmund



Scotty, I do want to consider the consumer viewpoint. But Phase One is guilty of aggressively promoting their product. Good for them. They're competing against a much, much larger company with a substantial market share advantage. Are they misleading consumers because a consumer may presume that any camera in the world that they would buy is supported by Capture One? Or maybe just the more expensive ones, the assumption being , these are professional cameras and Capture One is clearly a professional program. I get what you’re saying, I just don’t think it’s enough.

If someone owns Capture One, they do have in their possession a Read Me file that shows the supported cameras for that version. Most are probably familiar with this. Are there some that may not be and may assume every camera is supported? I guess so. But it’s like someone buying an iPod when they were Mac only and connecting it to their Dell computer and wondering why they couldn’t use it. Now Apple did certainly change that, but their target was an 80% market share. That’s not Phase One’s target. What I’m saying is that at some point, a consumer needs to take at least some responsibility. As far as those camera salespeople go, if you bought a camera that cost $9,000 and they said Capture One would work with it, I think you have grounds to take it back.

Raw support for Nikon/Canon and smaller cameras, including tethered support had been a staple of Capture One for years before Lightroom. It provided an “in” for Canon/Nikon users who were struggling with their mediocre raw workflow options, and in doing so, introduced these clients to Phase One the company and the higher end capture options Phase One offered. This is still true today. Nikon and Canon may be competitors to Phase One, but over 90% of my medium format digital clients also shoot DSLR. That provides far, far more potential customers than Pentax will. Users are going to buy a Nikon/Canon (or a Sony/Fuji) anyway, whether they also buy a Phase One product or not.

I just can’t see any competitive reason for Phase One to offer Capture One support to Pentax. Why address one of the biggest weaknesses of that product? Why not also coordinate a service/support arrangement with Pentax also, and address that? Why don’t they also offer Capture One support to Hasselblad? Why doesn’t Apple offer iOS to Samsung?

I want the best experience for consumers in the photographic industry, but I also look at the question of does it truly serve the long term interests of the manufacturer? It’s often a tricky and fine line. From that standpoint, I’m not quick to point fingers, I have to ask the questions, including how does this serve their interest so they can continue to survive/thrive? Would this strategy provide a benefit or a detriment?


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 12:08:20 am by eronald »
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JV

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2014, 11:13:26 pm »

I just can’t see any competitive reason for Phase One to offer Capture One support to Pentax. Why address one of the biggest weaknesses of that product? Why not also coordinate a service/support arrangement with Pentax also, and address that? Why don’t they also offer Capture One support to Hasselblad? Why doesn’t Apple offer iOS to Samsung?

Steve,

I believe you are slightly overestimating the power of Capture One here.

I have a Leica S2 in addition to 4 other camera systems.  The Leica S2 is already perfectly well served by Iridient Developer (a much smaller company than Phase) and LightRoom.

If however Capture One also offered Leica S support I would consider using C1 as my only raw converter and lock myself entirely into C1.  For me it is purely a convenience thing that would create a lot of customer goodwill.

Before v8 this didn't even cross my mind as for most systems it was my opinion that Iridient Developer did a better job anyway.  C1 v8 is a significant improvement in that respect.

IMO not offering Pentax/Leica/Hasselblad support is shortsighted and in the long run contra productive.

If Pentax/Leica/Hasselblad users were already C1 users would that at the same time not also put them in a position to more easily switch to Phase One?  

Joris.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2014, 11:36:40 pm »

Steve,

I believe you are slightly overestimating the power of Capture One here.

I have a Leica S2 in addition to 4 other camera systems.  The Leica S2 is already perfectly well served by Iridient Developer (a much smaller company than Phase) and LightRoom.

If however Capture One also offered Leica S support I would consider using C1 as my only raw converter and lock myself entirely into C1.  For me it is purely a convenience thing that would create a lot of customer goodwill.

Before v8 this didn't even cross my mind as for most systems it was my opinion that Iridient Developer did a better job anyway.  C1 v8 is a significant improvement in that respect.

IMO not offering Pentax/Leica/Hasselblad support is shortsighted and in the long run contra productive.

If Pentax/Leica/Hasselblad users were already C1 users would that at the same time not also put them in a position to more easily switch to Phase One?  

Joris.


Joris, I am familiar with Iridient. I know and have met Brian and very much respect him and his product.

Other than "goodwill", I don't see a benefit to Phase One that you've laid out by offering C1 support to Pentax/Leica/Hasselblad. I think the argument for an existing Capture One user (like a DSLR/Mirrorless user) to add a Phase One product rather than a competitive medium format user switching is a stronger argument. Think if Hasselblad for all these years had Capture One and Phase One had Flexcolor/Phocus. How their fortunes might have differed. The dividing lines are larger between files from a DSLR/Mirrorless than between Pentax/Leica/Hasselblad and Phase One. Resultingly, offering C1 support to Pentax/Leica/Hasselblad simply strengthens their position and probably reduces the desire to more easily switch to Phase One. IMO.

While I certainly respect the perspective of end users wanting Capture One for their capture device, I have to also respect and appreciate that Phase One probably knows just as much - or more - whether offering it would be wise for their future course or not. From that standpoint, they do have the benefit of knowing their future course, and if they feel it would be beneficial armed with that knowledge, one would think they would have already made the offering.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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tsjanik

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2014, 11:51:21 pm »

I think C1 not supporting Pentax is a very good thing. This provides a  lucrative potential niche for young programmers wishing to enter the market with a Raw converter.

Anyone who provides results equal or superior to Lightroom will find buyers with an eye to quality willing to listen. And,  if I may be allowed to exercise first amendment rights to satire, surpassing Lightroom in Raw conversion quality  is about as hard as getting out of bed for your average 19 year old with access to the Internet :).....................
Edmund

I very much agree Edmund, except, based on my recollection, getting out of bed at the age 19 is not easy unless it's after 10.
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eronald

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2014, 12:11:24 am »

I very much agree Edmund, except, based on my recollection, getting out of bed at the age 19 is not easy unless it's after 10.

Yes, those were the days - two major problems, getting them into bed in the evening, and getting oneself out for breakfast in the morning :)

Edmund
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erlingmm

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2014, 05:37:47 am »

Of course it is entirely up to C1 do decide what cameras to support, an I am not saying this is an easy business decision. It has to be balanced between:
- Does the C1 software give them a real advantage in the camera market? (How many say, well I have to buy Phase One camera to really get full advantage of C1)?
- What is the cost of maintaining an advanced SW for a niche camera, compared to broadening the sale of the SW and get more revenue/a less vulnerable position?
- Would a broader user base for C1 actually increase the interest for their camera - provide a path from other platforms to Phase One?

I am sure they have analyzed this. My point is just that I like C1 and would like to fully utillize it for my Leica S system. And I am not in the market for a Phase One, with or without C1.
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george2787

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2014, 06:48:43 am »

As bcooter said once, in the real market people vote with their wallets buying products.

In my case after some interest in the 645z, being a C1 user and some testing I've found that 645z+lightroom don't fit my workflow and I'm not buying... by now I'd be sticking with canon with some occasional P1 rent, and if I end up in MF it probably will be leaf or phase (o course at a lower price, but that's another story)

So with the actual 645z situation my vote is nope, if added support to c1 my vote would probably be a purchase that would benefit pentax and not phase, since I'd be buying the updates anyway and that would kill any chance of me getting a p1-leaf back.

I know that's only my 0.02 but there's one "vote"
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Ken R

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2014, 07:22:48 am »

As bcooter said once, in the real market people vote with their wallets buying products.

In my case after some interest in the 645z, being a C1 user and some testing I've found that 645z+lightroom don't fit my workflow and I'm not buying... by now I'd be sticking with canon with some occasional P1 rent, and if I end up in MF it probably will be leaf or phase (o course at a lower price, but that's another story)

So with the actual 645z situation my vote is nope, if added support to c1 my vote would probably be a purchase that would benefit pentax and not phase, since I'd be buying the updates anyway and that would kill any chance of me getting a p1-leaf back.

I know that's only my 0.02 but there's one "vote"

I actually had the 645D and liked it and the workfow was a non issue since I use Lightroom for all my library/catalog needs and processing DSLR files. I use C1 for all my work using the PhaseOne back. No with V8.1 I might move all my processing to C1p. My main issue with the 645D is that I wanted better and more lens selection and that the warranty (at least in the USA) was (still is) such that if anything went wrong with the camera (or lens) I would be without it 8-10 weeks. That is unacceptable. Canon has outstanding service (in the USA at least) with fast turnaround. Nikon I hear is a tad sketchy but good still.
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BobDavid

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2014, 09:50:48 am »

I would love to know why and see examples proving that processing .orf (Olympus RAW files) with Capture One is superior to ACR. Not to burst anybody's bubble, but I've yet run into an Oly shooter whose raved about or even tried Capture One. If it is 20% better than ACR, I may be willing to consider a swap.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2014, 10:04:10 am »

Personally I have bought and tried Capture One and used with my P45+ but we never made friends.

The advantage I see witch C1 V7 over LR5 is that it produces significantly less aliasing artefacts on the P45+.

So I am a quite happy user of LR5 (using my own DCP profiles) with the P45+, but hoping that Adobe comes up with a newer processing pipeline producing less artefacts with the P45+.

Best regards
Erik

I would love to know why and see examples proving that processing .orf (Olympus RAW files) with Capture One is superior to ACR. Not to burst anybody's bubble, but I've yet run into an Oly shooter whose raved about or even tried Capture One. If it is 20% better than ACR, I may be willing to consider a swap.
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eronald

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2014, 01:06:55 pm »

Personally I have bought and tried Capture One and used with my P45+ but we never made friends.

The advantage I see witch C1 V7 over LR5 is that it produces significantly less aliasing artefacts on the P45+.

So I am a quite happy user of LR5 (using my own DCP profiles) with the P45+, but hoping that Adobe comes up with a newer processing pipeline producing less artefacts with the P45+.

Best regards
Erik


Erik,

 Any version of C1 can be switched into DB mode where it is free with P1 files, so you don't need to buy it.
 You may profit from using an older version, they had a different look.

Edmund
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yaya

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2014, 03:53:02 pm »

BTW we're running a giveaway draw right now on Capture One Pro licences...sign up to our newsletter and be in a chance to win...

HNY all!!!!

BR

Yair
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eronald

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2014, 04:19:14 pm »

BTW we're running a giveaway draw right now on Capture One Pro licences...sign up to our newsletter and be in a chance to win...

HNY all!!!!

BR

Yair

Finally an on-topic post. What would we do without reps.
Happy New Year Yair -

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 04:23:12 pm by eronald »
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