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Author Topic: Capture One processing 645Z images  (Read 13401 times)

JV

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2014, 05:50:59 pm »

I agree with Kolor-Pikker.  Supported cameras like the A7R and the D800/D810 are more of a competitor than the Pentax or the Leica...

And if you are already supporting DNG files from Leica with the upcoming S007 DNG files probably being very close to the current M240 DNG files how much effort can it be...?

Pretty shortsighted of Phase IMO, for christ's sake Sony is selling its sensors to all competitors, why should C1 not be able to handle Pentax, Leica, Hasselblad, etc files?



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Scotty-S

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2014, 06:20:14 pm »

Based on this choice by Phase One, I doubt that I will ever ever use their software, it's just bad business in my view.

What happens if C1 supports my current camera but not my next one after that in 3 years time, do I change back to Adobe, no thanks.

I have a 645Z and would love to use C1, but as it does not support it I see no need to support them with anything.

I was going to buy an IQ back and body but found it to be the worst system I had ever used for the Price/Performance.  Sure the image quality may be ok, but the usability was terrible, making for a poor experience in my view.

I believe as a software company, they must remove their "we sell hardware" cap and look to expand the business. They will make so much more out of software than they ever will out of hardware.
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Ken R

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2014, 07:32:52 pm »

Hi,

I don't think so. They can just use DNG and rely on any raw converter supporting DNG, most of them actually do. It makes a lot more sense to work with Adobe and cooperating with Adobe to get good support than developing another crappy raw converter. I am not saying that Capture One or Phocus are bad, on the contrary. But, Capture on is now version 8, a long development.

Pentax has announced some kind of professional support arrangement at Photokina. Regarding longevity, the Pentax 645 was introduced 1984, so it has been around for thirty years.

Pentax doesn't need to dominate the playing field of Phase One and Hasselblad, they can dominate the playing field of their own. The main competitor may be Leica. Leica has also chosen the DNG path.

Best regards
Erik


DNG should work well for Pentax. And yes they could go that way completely.

Leica is in another market, part luxury item (for some) part professional tool. Their lenses are superb and the short flange focal length of the system allows lot's of lenses to be adapted (some with factory made adapters which is nice). I tried the Leica S and its a beaut., feels amazing in the hand and with the split prism focusing screen it is a joy to focus manually.

Regarding current Pentax (in the USA at least) service and support it is unacceptable. 8-10 weeks without a camera? That is just ridiculous but that is exactly how long 645D and 645Z owners are without their's if the camera needs to go in for repair no matter how simple or serious the repair is. Pentax did promise to take care of this but so far, nada. Might take a while.

Regarding longevity can't really compare film cameras to digital, apples to oranges.

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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2014, 11:21:17 pm »

Based on this choice by Phase One, I doubt that I will ever ever use their software, it's just bad business in my view.

What happens if C1 supports my current camera but not my next one after that in 3 years time, do I change back to Adobe, no thanks.

I have a 645Z and would love to use C1, but as it does not support it I see no need to support them with anything.

I was going to buy an IQ back and body but found it to be the worst system I had ever used for the Price/Performance.  Sure the image quality may be ok, but the usability was terrible, making for a poor experience in my view.

I believe as a software company, they must remove their "we sell hardware" cap and look to expand the business. They will make so much more out of software than they ever will out of hardware.



Sorry, I don't agree, Scotty.

From your perspective, you wouldn't use an iPod, an iPhone, an iPad, etc, because Apple won't license the Mac OS to run your Windows computer? Because it is in Apple's best interest to do this for you? Because Apple makes way more on software than hardware? I don't think so. I fail to see a reason that benefits Phase One to offer Capture One for competitive medium format products.

I know this isn't the "correct" thing to say, in the spirit of this thread, but I approach these topics from a purely business standpoint. Does this make sense for X manufacturer? Should X end user have to go through xyz, etc? Sure, if I was a Pentax owner, I would LOVE full C1 support, the same that is offered for Phase One/Leaf (and certain DSLR camera) users. But the fact that I own a directly competitive product and would love to be able to use Capture One more fully doesn't mean Phase One is loopy or stupid to not provide that.


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« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 11:22:50 pm by Steve Hendrix »
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sbernthal

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2014, 12:28:21 am »

I believe as a software company, they must remove their "we sell hardware" cap and look to expand the business. They will make so much more out of software than they ever will out of hardware.

What makes you think Phase is a software company? I'm pretty sure they think they're a camera company.
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eronald

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2014, 01:19:13 am »

Phase have a good integrated hardware/software solution. It's not legitimate to ask them to compete with themselves by optimizing their competition's files.

However, it would be time to ask Adobe to improve Lightroom. After all, it's not like they are starving for revenue to feed their R&D.

Edmund
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Scotty-S

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2014, 02:13:22 am »

Steve, I see your point, but please look at this from the standpoint of a consumer.

Have you logged onto the internet lately and seen the amount of marketing that phase are putting into C1, I see more of it than I do from Adobe.  If I didn't know better and was an average user shooting say a Canon DSLR of medium spec, saw their advertising, took it onboard, I would think that they are a direct competing offering to Adobe (which clearly they are not if they choose to stiff the competition)

I would view their well promoted training videos, read Kevin Raber rave about it on this site, download the trial version, use it, like it, trial it and become excited to use it.  I would then compare it to Adobe and purchase a one-off license and away I go.  3 years in I would become more enthused and cash rich and decide to take a look at the Pentax MF offering at my local camera store and go "wow" look at what it offers for the money.  I can "NEVER" afford or justify one of those P1 systems, but this, this is nice!

After taking my $9000 camera home, taking some sample files and loading them into C1 I would find that it doesn't work.  Then I would spend countless hours going through forums like this only to find that I have to change to adobe, change my workflow, re-learn, keep an existing application running on my pc for my old already edited files.

This is not the experience that the consumer wants to go through, not when the company that has plastered their advertising across camera sites and facebook, touting their product as a competing product to adobe, when in fact its not a competing product. 

What it clearly is, its an image editing program that P1 design for their backs so that they had complete control over the file process from start to finish, only to have a company exec look at it and say "can we make more money from this and make it available to everybody and compete with Adobe?" yes they can but lets cripple every competitor in the MF space along the way, just to say "screw you" cos' we can.

And before anybody says, "well that consumer in question should do more due diligence before spending $9k", true.  But every camera salesperson (except for the great ones like you Steve), actually knows less than the average person on these forums and will answer any question with a yes to get a sale, its the way of life.

Any to top off my point, Phase should be more scared about loosing sales to Sony FE and Nikon D8xx cameras and Zeiss lenses then they ever should be about Pentax.  They offer support to these customers and they represent a massive market.  Phase are dollar grabbing where they can and stiffing the apparent immediate competition along the way.  Phase are more likely to get the future business of a Pentax 645Z user than they ever are out of a Nikon or Sony FE user.

The real world is so far detached from these forums and the consumer is far less educated than what we think.  I think phase are a great company for doing what they do with their systems, its just frustrating to see something mis-represented.

Rant over.  :)

NB:  the above is not a tale of what happened to me, I was already aware of the above when getting into my 645D and now 645Z
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EricWHiss

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2014, 03:00:47 am »

For the longest time there hasn't been one RAW converter that supported all of my cameras…  Leica DMR, ixpress 528, Phase and the Leaf backs…   That was one of the killers for the Sigma DP2 for me…  do I really need that pain of another RAW converter?   

I don't know Phase's opinion on supporting other backs or not, but I can see a business case for making one software support every single camera out there - legacy ones included.   
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eronald

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2014, 03:28:06 am »

There is an excellent converter out there called Raw Developer, from Iridient, which IMHO spits out files that look better than C1 and Lightroom.  It works very well with Sigma DPx files as well. The trial is free - I just checked and it open 645Z files.

It is remarkable how forum members flock to the same products eg. C1 or Lightroom, whose limitations or lack of ability are well known, and then magically expect the product to improve just because they are using it. Guys, if you want the C1 workflow and optimal quality, pay the $30K and buy a Phase back - I assure you C1 is superb with a Phase back  - and if you want a really good converter for dSLRs or Pentax or a $400 Sigma DP3, just get Raw Developer for $70 or for Bayer files use Aperture or even the free Hasselblad Phocus which usually support any camera and get the job done.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 03:38:54 am by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2014, 04:12:24 am »

Hi,

Other alternatives are AccuRaw and RawTherapee.

But there is a significant difference. LR and possibly Capture One are workflow solutions. They are intended to make images that can be published directly. Say that Michael Reichmann or Jeff Schewe uses LR to more than 90% and it is just a few images <10% that needs to go to photoshop.

Using like Iridient RawDeveloper on my P45+ images gives me a 237 MB image instead a 42MB image, actually containing less information. So I need to do editing in Photoshop, to be able to do local adjustment, and save the result as another tiff. In this case 16 bit uncompressed TIFFs are assumed.

A DAM tool is still needed.

Getting back to Capture One, it is really their choice what camera systems they support. They have three licensing modes, AFAIK. Capture One DB works with some MFDs and comes free. The normal Capture One edition is reasonably priced and supports most camera models, with exception to those competing with Phase One. It seems that Leica S2 files are supported, though.

The third licensing mode is a special version for some Sony cameras.

Best regards
Erik





There is an excellent converter out there called Raw Developer, from Iridient, which IMHO spits out files that look better than C1 and Lightroom.  It works very well with Sigma DPx files as well. The trial is free - I just checked and it open 645Z files.

It is remarkable how forum members flock to the same products eg. C1 or Lightroom, whose limitations or lack of ability are well known, and then magically expect the product to improve just because they are using it. Guys, if you want the C1 workflow and optimal quality, pay the $30K and buy a Phase back - I assure you C1 is superb with a Phase back  - and if you want a really good converter for dSLRs or Pentax or a $400 Sigma DP3, just get Raw Developer for $70 or for Bayer files use Aperture or even the free Hasselblad Phocus which usually support any camera and get the job done.

Edmund
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Carsten W

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2014, 05:28:29 am »

There is an excellent converter out there called Raw Developer, from Iridient, which IMHO spits out files that look better than C1 and Lightroom.  It works very well with Sigma DPx files as well. The trial is free - I just checked and it open 645Z files.

It is remarkable how forum members flock to the same products eg. C1 or Lightroom, whose limitations or lack of ability are well known, and then magically expect the product to improve just because they are using it. Guys, if you want the C1 workflow and optimal quality, pay the $30K and buy a Phase back - I assure you C1 is superb with a Phase back  - and if you want a really good converter for dSLRs or Pentax or a $400 Sigma DP3, just get Raw Developer for $70 or for Bayer files use Aperture or even the free Hasselblad Phocus which usually support any camera and get the job done.

Edmund

Since you have apparently already done a full comparison with incontrovertible conclusions, perhaps post a link for all to peruse?
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torger

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2014, 05:39:25 am »

Phase have a good integrated hardware/software solution. It's not legitimate to ask them to compete with themselves by optimizing their competition's files.

However, it would be time to ask Adobe to improve Lightroom. After all, it's not like they are starving for revenue to feed their R&D.

Problem is that it's a matter of taste. Probably Adobe and the Lightroom team thinks that their color is the best on the market and have no intention to change their receipe. They have quite a big bunch of credible supporters too.
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torger

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2014, 05:49:37 am »

Concerning DNG you can see it just as a dumb raw container and spray it with proprietary tags, which is what most non-Adobe programs do when you export to DNG (a Phocus-exported DNG is much different than an Adobe-exported DNG of the same raw), or you can embrace it completely which includes the DCP color model.

I think that's a huge obstacle. I've programmed applications with DNG and DCP support so I'm very familiar with the internals, and it becomes quite clear that DCP = Lightroom's way of looking at color. If you want DNG but have your own color model (like all other raw converters with a history) you can do it but it will be a bit clunky. If you think you have the best color model in the world, which I assume all raw converter makers do, you will not embrace DNG with enthusiasm.

If DNG is going to be a hit long-term there is only one way - that cameras store directly in that format, like Pentax, Sinar and Leica, so you have the same color model throughout the chain. It should also be noted that while DNG is openly documented, there are many tags in there with unclear descriptions which clearly only Adobe knows what they really mean. You can't have it that way if you expect your format to be adopted as a standard.

If it's true what many here say that Lightroom's color really isn't that good, and that is related to DCP, this means that the DNG format is inherently flawed, which of course would be a problem for wide adoption. But it's hard to gather evidence for or against that claim.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 05:51:47 am by torger »
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Kolor-Pikker

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2014, 05:50:39 am »

Hi,

Other alternatives are AccuRaw and RawTherapee.

But there is a significant difference. LR and possibly Capture One are workflow solutions. They are intended to make images that can be published directly. Say that Michael Reichmann or Jeff Schewe uses LR to more than 90% and it is just a few images <10% that needs to go to photoshop.

Using like Iridient RawDeveloper on my P45+ images gives me a 237 MB image instead a 42MB image, actually containing less information. So I need to do editing in Photoshop, to be able to do local adjustment, and save the result as another tiff. In this case 16 bit uncompressed TIFFs are assumed.

A DAM tool is still needed.

I agree with this, I've tried out RD on two occasions in the past, and it didn't really click with me; the interface wasn't terribly intuitive and it lacks any sort of browsing system, which at almost 2015 now I think is a must. Maybe it does produce better results, but I just feel like I have to spend way too much time twiddling with settings to get there.
What I like about C1 is being able to charge through a folder of images AND get nice results quickly by adjusting a few parameters, and while I'm still coming to grips with LR, it's clear that some things are just slower or less intuitive to do even with hotkeys, like copying adjustments between images takes an extra step. Little things that add up.
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torger

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2014, 06:03:00 am »

Being a contributor to RawTherapee and a long-time user I don't think it's suitable for most professionals. You need a special interest in raw conversion to move outside the Capture One / Lightroom box, and the open-source RT is at an extreme. It's a powerful tool that can produce great results and the project has made many important contributions in opening formats and thus securing them for the future, but it's not streamlined for user friendliness and lacks certain features most pro users need, like tethering, DAM and printing features. It's also more focused on progress using the minimal resources available (people that contribute on their spare time) than keeping backwards compatiblity which can be a problem for pro work. And finally, as a user you're expected to contribute with patience (bugs, report and test), it's more of a community experience.

For low volume artistic work I find RT to be great, I do most of my MF tech cam work there in combination with other tools, but I often switch to Lightroom when I have 2000 files to process from a sports shoot. Nowadays it happens I use RT for that too though, because I can, but it's not the best tool for that.

I obviously have a great interest in raw conversion, but I also find it valuable form an artistic perspective to have transparent software, ie software that really shows what's happening, and that you can find in RT and some other smaller software that's not too focused on user-friendliness. The big programs are a bit too automatic for my taste, and I find it more difficult to make a personal expression with them (perhaps because so many use them and they have a certain look), but that's me.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 06:50:13 am by torger »
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2014, 10:22:46 am »

I agree with Kolor-Pikker.  Supported cameras like the A7R and the D800/D810 are more of a competitor than the Pentax or the Leica...

well, there is a difference between "Sony" as competition and P&L... one is too big and it's sister company (Sony Semi) sells you your sensors... two others are not big (even P is part of R), compete more directly with their MF dSLRs (Sony does not yet, even getting closer) and not supporting them does not make a noticeable dent financially for P1 software business, while deal with Sony (free C1 for Sony cameras) might actually expand their paid user base by baiting some people to upgrade to paid C1 version - not so much numbers-wise with non supported users of MF dSLRs from P&L which totally make at best 1% of Sony users (remember, regular P dSLRs are still supported, at least PEFs)...
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2014, 10:31:39 am »

More than the 645Z or Leica S, the current crop of small format cameras with 36MP sensors (and soon even more), with respectable glass, can attain very close results at common print sizes, and yet C1 supports those systems...
because there are money on that table (Nikon & Sony) that can't be ignored... while MF dSLRs from P&L can be ignored w/o anybody but few people here complaining (and half or third of complainers still using C1 in some shape, with half or third of them users even getting paid version of C1  ;D... just like with DNG proponents here, who are screaming every month or so and then go & buy non DNG cameras year after year...)
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eronald

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2014, 02:44:15 pm »

Torger,

 There would be a simple way to reconcile the quality requirements of the few with the desires of the many, and that would be to invoke another raw converter to create a Jpeg from within Lightroom. There is no reason to require a Raw converter to provide DAM features.

 I fail to understand why I should use Lightroom if it turns my $10K system into the equivalent of a point and shoot. In fact Phase One have been very good at using this phenomenon as a marketing strategy - by invoking DAM features and tehering they are in fact making people use a Raw converter and getting high quality results at a high price, when in fact almost equivalent results could be got in the first place with dSLR equipment at 10% of the price if decent software were used in the place of Lightroom.

Edmund


Being a contributor to RawTherapee and a long-time user I don't think it's suitable for most professionals. You need a special interest in raw conversion to move outside the Capture One / Lightroom box, and the open-source RT is at an extreme. It's a powerful tool that can produce great results and the project has made many important contributions in opening formats and thus securing them for the future, but it's not streamlined for user friendliness and lacks certain features most pro users need, like tethering, DAM and printing features. It's also more focused on progress using the minimal resources available (people that contribute on their spare time) than keeping backwards compatiblity which can be a problem for pro work. And finally, as a user you're expected to contribute with patience (bugs, report and test), it's more of a community experience.

For low volume artistic work I find RT to be great, I do most of my MF tech cam work there in combination with other tools, but I often switch to Lightroom when I have 2000 files to process from a sports shoot. Nowadays it happens I use RT for that too though, because I can, but it's not the best tool for that.

I obviously have a great interest in raw conversion, but I also find it valuable form an artistic perspective to have transparent software, ie software that really shows what's happening, and that you can find in RT and some other smaller software that's not too focused on user-friendliness. The big programs are a bit too automatic for my taste, and I find it more difficult to make a personal expression with them (perhaps because so many use them and they have a certain look), but that's me.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2014, 03:04:57 pm »

Hi,

I don't feel I got superior results from Capture One compared to Lightroom, except that there are cases where Lightroom causes more demosaic artefacts. In those, not so rare, cases other raw converters like RawTherapee or AccuRaw may yield superior results. Lightroom used to have a large advantage in tone mapping, introduced in the 2012 processing pipeline. May be Capture One has catched up in that area in the latest version 8.x.

I hope that Adobe puts some more effort in demosaicing, now that we have more and more non OLP filtered sensors.

Best regards
Erik


 

Torger,

 There would be a simple way to reconcile the quality requirements of the few with the desires of the many, and that would be to invoke another raw converter to create a Jpeg from within Lightroom. There is no reason to require a Raw converter to provide DAM features.

 I fail to understand why I should use Lightroom if it turns my $10K system into the equivalent of a point and shoot. In fact Phase One have been very good at using this phenomenon as a marketing strategy - by invoking DAM features and tehering they are in fact making people use a Raw converter and getting high quality results at a high price, when in fact almost equivalent results could be got in the first place with dSLR equipment at 10% of the price if decent software were used in the place of Lightroom.

Edmund


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torger

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Re: Capture One processing 645Z images
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2014, 03:28:32 pm »

There would be a simple way to reconcile the quality requirements of the few with the desires of the many, and that would be to invoke another raw converter to create a Jpeg from within Lightroom. There is no reason to require a Raw converter to provide DAM features.

I'm glad to hear that. I was just guessing a bit, since I don't use DAM software myself. I'm old-fashioned, amateur and shoot low volumes and saves even less so an ordered directory structure based on dates has been enough so far, but it doesn't scale well so I guess at some point I'll need a better solution for that.
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