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Author Topic: Going digital  (Read 8020 times)

Andres Bonilla

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Going digital
« on: December 26, 2005, 01:04:53 am »

I am finally going to go digital but my budget is kid of limited. I found this deal and it sounded good, I know there are much better lenses costing twice as much than the intire kit I have in mind but I am actually going  a little over my budget now. My photography is usually done when I go on location with the tv station I work for, I set down the video camera and grab a few shots with my still camera or I take photos when traveling on vacation. My only photography trip was to Yosemite and I was a little disappointed with the quality of my film Rebel and the Tamrom zoom; most people tell me that going digital would be a pleasant surprise. Here is hte kit that I have in mind for $1494 USD.
PACKAGE INCLUDES:  1.CANON DIGITAL REBEL XT CAMERA BODY   2.CANON 17-85 USM IS LENS  3.CANON 70-300 USM IS LENS  4.1GIG MEMORY CARD  5.CASE  6.LCD SCREEN COVER   7.LENS CLEANING KIT  8.FULL SIZE TRIPOD  9.WRIST STRAP 10.CARD READER 11.CAP KEEPER12.MEMORY CARD CASE  

I would problably get another 2 gigs of memory card, I also need to ask what type of memory card they use, I heard that scandisk is very good?

Thanks for your input,

Andres
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collum

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« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2005, 01:38:53 am »

where are  you getting this kit from?

       jim
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2005, 03:07:30 am »

Quote
Here is hte kit that I have in mind for $1494 USD.
PACKAGE INCLUDES:  1.CANON DIGITAL REBEL XT CAMERA BODY   2.CANON 17-85 USM IS LENS  3.CANON 70-300 USM IS LENS  4.1GIG MEMORY CARD  5.CASE  6.LCD SCREEN COVER   7.LENS CLEANING KIT  8.FULL SIZE TRIPOD  9.WRIST STRAP 10.CARD READER 11.CAP KEEPER12.MEMORY CARD CASE 


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=54299\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I took a quick look on www.pricegrabber.com and found the following prices from merchants with good ratings.

Canon 350D Body      ~ $760
Canon 17-85 USB IS  ~ $495
Canon 70-300 USB IS ~ $565

Those three items total about $1820.  That makes the package price of $1494 quite good.  I'd check the reputation of the dealer very carefully.  

And make sure that they have a good return policy.  Just in case....
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dwdallam

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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2005, 05:16:39 am »

Another thing you may consider too is getting one really good L lens, like the Canon
28-70 L series lens. On your XT Rebel, that would be about 44 to 105 I think. I use my 28-70 more than anything else and I have both the 17-35 L and 70-200 IS L lens. The equivalent 1.6 crop factor makes the 28-70 L lens at 44-105 a work horse, and then you have an L lens too. I think you can buy an extender that will give you another 1.4 factor also, for about 120.00 dollars, and then you have a 156mm zoom. If you can use teh 2x extender with the 28-70, you can have a total of 224mm zoom for the cost of one L lens and one 2x extender. As the 28-70 is a fast 2.8 lens, your 2x extender would make it I think a 4.0 at 224mm? So, for the cost of one L lens at 28-70 and one 120.00 dollar 2x extender, you get the quality of an L lens, and a 44 - 224mm lens equvalent.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2005, 10:17:31 am »

I suggest you make sure the equipment you buy is warranteed in the market area where you are living, that you will be able to register the products for warrantee service where you live and the instruction manuals are in a language you understand; in other words, make sure it is not "grey market" stuff relative to your service area, and also that it is not reconditioned. Those prices sound too good to be without some catch.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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raymondh

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« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2005, 12:23:58 pm »

My guess, with the accesories you've listed, this is a online retailer out of Brooklyn, NY.  Nothing against Brooklyn (I've bought from B&H many times) but please do check the ratings of the retailer.

Here's one place I've used for checking ratings.  Reseller Ratings
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Andres Bonilla

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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2005, 01:03:36 pm »

Thank you very much for your replies but at another forum I posted the name of the seller Infinityphoto that goes by many names and of course they are the biggest thieves and scammers in the world; the seller rating website has many people complaining to New York's district attorney. So I may go to Costco or another reputable online store, B&H OR Adorama perhaps? The problem with Costco is that they only have the kit lens that is only 100 bucks but I heard is not very good. What is a good brand of CF card, scan disk, lexar? The problem wi8th these crooks is thst they sold their camera without the battery or the charger and then wanted $300 dollars for them. If I get a camera from Costco or Sammys camera in L.A what comes with it? The body, the case and what about cables and card reader etc?

Thanks,

Andres
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2005, 01:24:52 pm »

Andres,

For the camera you are interested in buying, first go to the manufafturer's website (in this case Canon), look up the product and they will tell you what comes in the box as standard equipment. The battery and charger are almost always standard equipment for dslrs, but cases may or may not be included - often they are not. There are some cheap digicams that come only with replaceable batteries, in which case the purchaser is responsible for buying rechargeables and charger - but not in the league you are looking at. Anyhow, learn first what comes standard and the best place for this information is the manufacturer.

Second, from what you found out it is now clear - deal only with reputable retailers that have good prices and good service. B&H, for example, is excellent in both respects, and there are no constraints on choice with those guys - they usually have just about everything. They distinguish between products that have USA warrantees and those which do not, so you know right from the start what you are buying - no games.

Sandisk and Lexar both make well-proven CF cards. I know Sandisk because that is what I use, but many also swear by Lexar. I bought Sandisk Extremes (1 GB) and they have been totally reliable. Now they come as Extreme III in the better quality series. The Extreme series are costlier than the basic series, but provide higher speed and they say greater reliability.

Card readers usually do not come supplied with the camera unless the retailer has put together some kind of special. But a card reader is cheap. Sandisk makes a reliable one for about USD 20.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Andres Bonilla

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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2005, 06:01:31 pm »

Thank you Mark, I got my gear from Samy's camera in L.A, the price with the 17-85 IS USM was $ 1174.95 with the rebate,I got a Dane I gig and I bought from Costco 2  I gigs scandisk for  $89.99 each, I also got an HP card reader from Samy's for $29.99. I did not get the 70-300 mm is for about $ 560 because I was already overbudget. Now that I have reinstalled the new drivers for everything on my computer I need to reinstall CS2
Thanks again,

Andres
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dwdallam

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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2005, 02:15:57 am »

Quote
Thank you Mark, I got my gear from Samy's camera in L.A, the price with the 17-85 IS USM was $ 1174.95 with the rebate,I got a Dane I gig and I bought from Costco 2  I gigs scandisk for  $89.99 each, I also got an HP card reader from Samy's for $29.99. I did not get the 70-300 mm is for about $ 560 because I was already overbudget. Now that I have reinstalled the new drivers for everything on my computer I need to reinstall CS2
Thanks again,

Andres
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=54348\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think that 17-85 is an f 4.0 lens man. It also will only fit two Canon cameras, yours (300D series) and the 20D. If you ever update to a fullframe you can't use it. Also, the 24-70 is an L lens and cost about the same as the one you bought, albeit it is NOT IS--which I have no idea why anyone would need IS on that focal length.

Canon    USA          
Price : $ 1,149.95
Mail-In Rebate: $ 45.00
Price After Rebate: $ 1,104.95
EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

Here is a deal B&H is floating right now:
Canon EOS 20D, 8.2 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera with Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Autofocus Lens
Mfr# 9442A036 • B&H# CAE20D1785    
Our Price: $ 1,759.95
B&H Exclusive Rebate
$ 100.00
Price After Rebate:
$ 1,659.95

Just my opinion, but I think you are wasting your money IS-ing a 17-85 lens. I didn't even know Canon had the 17-85 IS. You could save lots of money buying the standard 17-35 at 524.00:

EOS Digital Rebel XT (a.k.a. 350D) 8.0 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera (Black) with Canon 17-85mm EF-S IS USM Lens EOS Digital Rebel XT Digital Camera (Black) with Canon 17-85mm Lens              
Price : $ 1,249.95
Mail-In Rebate: $ 75.00
Price After Rebate: $ 1,174.95
Shipping Cost
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dwdallam

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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2005, 02:18:52 am »

One more thing. I mentioned the Canon 28-70 L lens, and I meant the 24-70 L. There is no 28-70 Canon. The 24-70 will give you an equivalent 38.4-112. My freind makes part of his living doing landscapes, and 95% of them are shot with teh 24-70 on a 20D. So you get plenty of wide angle at 38.4 mm. So don't worry about that.
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Andres Bonilla

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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2005, 03:37:47 am »

Well, I see your point DW Dallan, I just went with the suggestion and review of this site and others that this kit was a very good starting point into the digital world; as I mentioned my budget was kind of tight and the reason I went with the IS is because it is a good all purpose lens but only 4.0-5.6 and I thought that being able to handheld shot a coulple of stops more was a good idea.
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dwdallam

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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2005, 04:35:55 am »

Quote
Well, I see your point DW Dallan, I just went with the suggestion and review of this site and others that this kit was a very good starting point into the digital world; as I mentioned my budget was kind of tight and the reason I went with the IS is because it is a good all purpose lens but only 4.0-5.6 and I thought that being able to handheld shot a coulple of stops more was a good idea.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=54385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

OK I see why you did that. Still, I think it would have been money better spent on the 24-70 L 2.8 non IS. But you have a nice set up in any event. Have fun with it.
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2005, 08:22:10 am »

Andres, use it well and good luck with it. I don't own that kit and haven't used it, but I know someone who does, and his results are VERY good. When the time comes that you feel the need to up-grade, you will most likely sell both the camera and the lens together, hence all your future options are open, including equipment choices to be developed that we don't even know about yet.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jani

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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2005, 07:15:16 pm »

Quote
One more thing. I mentioned the Canon 28-70 L lens, and I meant the 24-70 L. There is no 28-70 Canon.
Yes there is, on the used market. It's the predecessor of the 24-70L.

As for your earlier comment:

Quote
If you can use teh 2x extender with the 28-70, you can have a total of 224mm zoom for the cost of one L lens and one 2x extender.
You can't. This information is easily available at Canon's web site.

Quote
I think that 17-85 is an f 4.0 lens man.
Why "think" when you can check? Here's Canon's web page for the 17-85.

Quote
It also will only fit two Canon cameras, yours (300D series) and the 20D. If you ever update to a fullframe you can't use it. Also, the 24-70 is an L lens and cost about the same as the one you bought, albeit it is NOT IS--which I have no idea why anyone would need IS on that focal length.
Well, on a 1:1.6 sensor like these cameras have, 70mm shows a FOV similar to that of a 112mm lens on a 1:1 sensor, while 85mm shows a FOV similar to 136mm.

If you always use a tripod to take pictures of well-lit scenes and never do hand-held photography at dusk or dawn, at concerts or other social events, or otherwise avoid e.g. street photography, I can see how you don't see the need to eliminate camera shake.

But the ability to hand-hold at 85mm (136mm) at shutter speeds up to 1/20th second is really, really nice. Without IS, you'd most likely be limited at no longer than 1/130th second. I consider both these numbers somewhat optimistic, except for web size images (e.g. 640x480).
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dwdallam

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« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2005, 04:22:30 am »

Quote
Yes there is, on the used market. It's the predecessor of the 24-70L.

As for your earlier comment:
You can't. This information is easily available at Canon's web site.
Why "think" when you can check? Here's Canon's web page for the 17-85.
Well, on a 1:1.6 sensor like these cameras have, 70mm shows a FOV similar to that of a 112mm lens on a 1:1 sensor, while 85mm shows a FOV similar to 136mm.

If you always use a tripod to take pictures of well-lit scenes and never do hand-held photography at dusk or dawn, at concerts or other social events, or otherwise avoid e.g. street photography, I can see how you don't see the need to eliminate camera shake.

But the ability to hand-hold at 85mm (136mm) at shutter speeds up to 1/20th second is really, really nice. Without IS, you'd most likely be limited at no longer than 1/130th second. I consider both these numbers somewhat optimistic, except for web size images (e.g. 640x480).
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=54455\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, for practical purposes, the Canon 28-70 doesn't even come up on B&H's website. I'd say it's old news.

F4 is what the lens was rated at on B&H's website. I'd say that pretty much means it would not be anything less on the Canon site, or the B&H site would have listed it.

If you are doing hand held photography, then you probably aren't after tripod quality anyway. So you can simply open the aperture and raise the ISO a bit for a relatively fast shutter speed in lower light situations. However, since the lens is F4, the IS is probably necessary is some situations. But my point is that if you want a walk around all around lens, you probably don't want an F4 lens. If you want to shoot lanscapes primarily, and you want a lens that only comes in teh flavor of F4, tehn you'll probably be fine, since you will be wanting to shoot at F5-11 anyway on a tripod. Why not trade the F4 for the 2.8, get rid of the IS and have a better lens for the same price that can transfer to other full frame cameras?

Don't forget too that the Rebel has a hot shoe and built in flash for low light shoot from the hip situations.

It's a nice setup. But I think my argument is valid.
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jani

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« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2005, 05:42:54 am »

Quote
Well, for practical purposes, the Canon 28-70 doesn't even come up on B&H's website. I'd say it's old news.
Yes, it is.

Quote
F4 is what the lens was rated at on B&H's website. I'd say that pretty much means it would not be anything less on the Canon site, or the B&H site would have listed it.
It's f/4 at 17mm and f/5.6 at 85mm.

Quote
If you are doing hand held photography, then you probably aren't after tripod quality anyway.
I don't see the relevance of that statement. If you're doing photography, you're most likely after the best possible quality you can afford and which is practical.

Quote
So you can simply open the aperture and raise the ISO a bit for a relatively fast shutter speed in lower light situations. However, since the lens is F4, the IS is probably necessary is some situations. But my point is that if you want a walk around all around lens, you probably don't want an F4 lens. If you want to shoot lanscapes primarily, and you want a lens that only comes in teh flavor of F4, tehn you'll probably be fine, since you will be wanting to shoot at F5-11 anyway on a tripod.
I don't think you understand the full benefits of this lens as a walk-around lens.

 - 17mm vs 24mm; that's about a third wider FOV
 - IS yields hand-holding options equivalent to approximately f/1.4 at 17mm and f/2 at 85mm
 - Light weight means less strain on the neck/wrists
 - Smaller lens means that you're less obtrusive

However, the latter three of these benefits are also true for the 24-105mm f/4L IS.

But "raising the ISO a bit" is not an option when you're already shooting at ISO 1600.

Quote
Why not trade the F4 for the 2.8, get rid of the IS and have a better lens for the same price that can transfer to other full frame cameras?
The same price? Where can I get the 24-70 for the same price as the 17-85, without paying twice the normal price for the 17-85? Tell me, and I'll sell my 24-70 on the used market and buy a brand new one instead! At B&H, the 17-85 is USD 525 for the USA version, while the 24-70 is 1150 ...

Also, your question should be:

"Why not trade the EF-S 17-85 for the EF 24-105 f/4L and have a better lens for a little more than twice the price?"


Quote
Don't forget too that the Rebel has a hot shoe and built in flash for low light shoot from the hip situations.
Don't forget that using a flash is impractical in many, many situations.

Example:



A flash in the above image would simply ruin the play of colours and shadows from the candlelights.
This image was shot at f/2.8 @70mm, 1/30 exposure time, ISO 800 with IS enabled.

I was fortunate in that I had planned the shot and could use a tripod, but on several occasions, you just have to grab the shot.

Technically speaking, the shot could have been taken on a tripod with the 24-70mm f/2.8L at f/2.8. The lack of IS would mean that I'd have to push the ISO setting to 3200 to have a chance at a handheld shot like that; 1/120 exposure time may be sufficient for 70mm, ISO 1600 and 1/60 is not, but could be possible on a tripod.

Here's another example:


f/4.5 @70mm, 1/80 exposure time, ISO 3200 with IS enabled, -1/3 EV (underexposed).

If we were to ignore my desire for the DOF that f/4.5 gave me, f/2.8 would make the same exposure possible on a tripod at ISO 3200.

Since ISO 3200 is unavailable on the Rebel and Rebel XT, you can draw your own conclusions regarding the likelyhood of having success with images like that.


f/3.5 @32mm, 1/30 exposure time, ISO 1600, -2/3 EV.

With a Rebel or Rebel XT, I couldn't push this much further. I'd get 1/50 exposure time at f/2.8, which would be barely enough. The 20D etc. can push it to 1/100 exposure at f/2.8.

I dearly wish I had IS at the time I was taking that image; I missed so many opportunities simply because:

 - a tripod was impractical (people would bump into it)
 - it was mostly even darker than in the semi-successful image posted above

Quote
It's a nice setup. But I think my argument is valid.
I don't.
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Jan

Mark D Segal

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« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2005, 09:30:32 am »

Jan, I'm not engaging the equipment argument - I think you are correct.

The purpose of this post is simply to acknowledge the superb quality of those three photographs- the subject matter is engaging, and at the technical level, your treatment of luminosity and colour is very, very good. I also appreciated how free of noise they are at such high ISO settings. I assume you used some kind of noise reduction software - could you explain?

Happy holidays,

Mark
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jani

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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2005, 04:52:23 pm »

Quote
Jan, I'm not engaging the equipment argument - I think you are correct.

The purpose of this post is simply to acknowledge the superb quality of those three photographs- the subject matter is engaging, and at the technical level, your treatment of luminosity and colour is very, very good.
Thanks, that's probably the warmest welcome I've had for any of my photographs except from friends and relatives (who tend to be positive no matter what ...)!

Quote
I also appreciated how free of noise they are at such high ISO settings. I assume you used some kind of noise reduction software - could you explain?
Sure! (Although I suspect it's the web-size of the images that give the appearance of low noise; I haven't cropped these by much.)

I've used ACR 3.x (the most recent version available at the time of conversion). If the image looks somewhat noisy, as it can at ISO 800, I usually use a luminance smoothing at 25-30, with colour NR at about the same. Sometimes, I wonder why I bother with colour NR at all.

The first picture is 25/25.

The second has zero luminance smoothing and 25 in colour NR (not really necessary, I guess I forgot to change the setting). In pixel-by-pixel view on screen, the noise is quite apparent, but I find that ACR's and Photoshop's noise reduction remove too much detail. I haven't tried with any other tools, I think the noise also works to the image's advantage here. (100% crop of the girl's head, unsharpened)

The third picture is 30/25.

The first two are decent at 100% review on the monitor, but the third is -- unsurprisingly -- suffering from camera movement blur.


I have on several occasions considered purchasing Noise Ninja or Neat Image, but I've felt that I have to concentrate more on the artistic side (and getting a decent, calibrated monitor) first.


And happy holidays to you too, Mark, as well as the rest of y'all.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 05:00:23 am by jani »
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Mark D Segal

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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2005, 05:35:14 pm »

Jan, OK, you have it easy. My wife is no photography expert, but a designer with an artistic eye, so when she finds a photo of mine blah-blah, pointless, or otherwise uninspiring she says so and she's usually correct.

On noise reduction - I'm using Noise Ninja. It is so good at reducing noise - and followed bv PK Capture Sharpener Pro for restoring any lost acutance, that I have not bothered testing ACR noise reduction capabilities. By using Noise Ninja on a separate layer, and with PK on its own layers by design, one can play back and forth with layer opacities to get just the right combination of noise reduction and capture sharpening.

But you are right - a decent profiled and calibrated monitor is a higher priority for good Photoshop work - you must be using something decent there, otherwise you would be expending alot of paper and ink to get the results you are showing.

Cheers.
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