pentax 645z vs mamiya 40mp for family/pet portraiture

[mstevensphoto]

Hey folks,
   A while back I looked at the mamiya credo 40mp kit as the 645z was about to be released. I never pulled the trigger on either. I shoot mainly children/families and children/dogs in controlled but not always indoor settings. I don't do lifestyle photos so wile no one is running they are more likely to be at least a little wiggly OR are more likely only to hold their pose for a brief moment before becoming wiggly again. More and more I'm making enlargements at or over 40" on a side.
   I've not shot with MF since my film mamiya 645 which I always liked. unfortunately in the time since I've had some cornea issues and I'm now 20/90 at best and therefore 100% reliant on autofocus. as it sits I mostly use center point and focus/recompose with my 5d mk III and am not particularly concerned with the effects of rotating my focus point off axis. The Hassy systems are not in the budget.
   Has anyone had a chance to compare the 645z and the mamiya with the 40mp back? aside from the 10mp difference, what did you feel was the most notable difference? Do you feel that either would suit the use I describe above? since the price is basically the same can you think of other pros and cons between those two cameras?
thanks
Mark

[eronald]

Hassy is having a sale on the H5D40, which has a very good focus and a recompose aid called TrueFocus which figures out the focus plane shift when you recompose. I think system price is around $10K.

The Pentax has a fast modern AF system and can shoot at very high ISO. I think it can also do a lot of other "modern" things like 3 frames per second. I would expect the Pentax to win in any contest between MF cameras where speed is in any way an issue.

I have never heard the Mamiya AF system described as comparable to an SLR, although everyone agrees it is adequate and accurate in good light for cooperative subjects.  

Edmund

[Doug Peterson]

I think it can also do a lot of other "modern" things like 3 frames per second. I would expect the Pentax to win in any contest between MF cameras where speed is in any way an issue.

Have you handled a Pentax 645Z?

There's a lot more to speed than the spec for burst rate (though that is important to consider if you need bursts). Below are some other considerations on speed - I'm not asserting that all of these favor the Credo 40 (though many do), but simply making the point that a spec sheet is only a very basic way to asses something like speed.

Untethered:
- how fast an image appears on the LCD after a single capture
- how fast the last image appears on the LCD after a burst of captures
- how soon, after a burst of captures, you can browse/zoom/review images
- how long it takes to zoom to 100% on an image to the center of an image
- how long it takes to zoom to 100% on an image to a specific non-centered area of an image
- how long you can shoot at a particular rate (e.g. strobe cycle time) without lag/buffer-limits

Tethered:
- how long an image takes to show on the monitor after a single capture
- how long the last image takes to show on the monitor after a burst of captures
- how long you can shoot at a particular rate (e.g. strobe cycle time) without lag/buffer-limits

User Interface / other:
- how fast it takes to asses exposure or framing, or make relevant comparisons to previously captured frames
- how fast you can access and change custom settings
- how long it takes to go through post processing a shoot to a final result; this last one turns out to likely be the most important for many shooters - if color/tone/look is good out of camera, or easily achieved using presets in software this can save many hours per week

There are also things you cannot directly compare. For some kinds of shooting the Focus Mask tool in an IQ140 (close relative to the Credo 40) can provide instant review of focus without zooming.

[Doug Peterson]

A while back I looked at the mamiya credo 40mp kit as the 645z was about to be released. I never pulled the trigger on either. I shoot mainly children/families and children/dogs in controlled but not always indoor settings. I don't do lifestyle photos so wile no one is running they are more likely to be at least a little wiggly OR are more likely only to hold their pose for a brief moment before becoming wiggly again. More and more I'm making enlargements at or over 40" on a side.
   I've not shot with MF since my film mamiya 645 which I always liked. unfortunately in the time since I've had some cornea issues and I'm now 20/90 at best and therefore 100% reliant on autofocus. as it sits I mostly use center point and focus/recompose with my 5d mk III and am not particularly concerned with the effects of rotating my focus point off axis. The Hassy systems are not in the budget.
   Has anyone had a chance to compare the 645z and the mamiya with the 40mp back? aside from the 10mp difference, what did you feel was the most notable difference? Do you feel that either would suit the use I describe above? since the price is basically the same can you think of other pros and cons between those two cameras?
thanks.

Some advantages for the Leaf Credo options:
- Tethering: Robust, Professional, Feature-Rich, Fast Tethering with Capture One Pro
- Compatibility: with C1 Pro 8 for processing. If you've not thrown some of your Canon files into C1 instead of LR you'll be surprised how well C1 handles Canon files. As a result you can use C1 Pro 8 with both cameras, whereas with the Pentax you cannot use C1 Pro 8. Here are two articles on C1v8 I've written recently for FStoppers and Smashbox Studios.
- Dealer support/service:, any question you need answered, someone to help with the evaluation of different lenses/accessories etc (advice/loans/test-files/rentals)
- Manufacturer support/service: Professional, reliable, communicative repairs/service from the manufacturer if you need them
- Modularity: compatibility with an RZ (with it's waist level viewfinder), tech camera, view camera, pinhole camera etc. Possible because the back is separate from the body.
- Upgradeability: if you buy a Credo 40 now and want to buy e.g. an IQ260 next year you'll get a great value for your Credo 40 and you won't have to change your body. Likewise if you want to upgrade your body you can upgrade it without changing your sensor. Say in 2 years this whole foray into medium format has gone well for you and you find the trend towards large prints has continued you could upgrade to 60mp, 80mp, or whatever is available at that time. Team Phase One has led (in the modern era of MFD) in the release of high-resolution systems (first to 60mp, first to 80mp, first to full frame 645) and based on their public financials I'd say they are well positioned to continue this leadership.
- Lenses: top notch lenses. Full range of modern, made for digital, leaf shutter lenses (also a very nice line of non leaf shutter lenses and last-generation lenses at lower prices) Get some raw files from a dealer showing things like the Schneider 80LS shot wide open. Bokeh is beautiful, sharpness is exceptional, overall rendering is great (but again, everything is subjective, so test yourself or get relevant raw files).
- Sync speed: up to 1/1600th with the LS lenses. Control ambient and strobe independently in nearly any lighting situation. Allows wide-open use with strobe outside, day-as-night, stopping motion regardless of ambient light, and various special looks
- Color: the look of Leaf backs is well regarded. It is a subjective topic of course, but you'll have a hard time finding anyone, even on the internet where people tend to be grumpy, saying bad things about the color from a Leaf back. The fact that Team Phase One controls the entire chain (lens, back, color engine of software, color profile) is very significant. Read the IQ250 CMOS Fully Realized article which explains some of this in more detail.

There are, of course, notable advantages for the Pentax as well. They are both good systems.

[eronald]

Have you handled a Pentax 645Z?

Yes I have. I think it's the most ugly boxy excuse one could dream up for a camera, but I could find no fault with its functionality, in my test it did focus fast and well in horrible light. And I believe one can do available light portraiture quite well at ISO 6400 with that ugly box.  As the french might say, "a gal can be smart without it showin' on her face"  

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The founder of this site owns and likes the P645Z: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=95736.msg782622#msg782622

I have owned Contax, Hasselblad and Mamiya/Phase One cameras and lens systems over the years.

I have owned and shot with the P25, P45, IQ 180, and tested most other Phase and Hassy backs. I have also worked with the Leica S2.

In my opinion the Pentax 645z not just meets the others in terms of image quality, but surpasses most of them. It's hands-down a more user oriented camera than any of them, except the Leica S.

Leica S lenses are no doubt superb, as are some of the new Phase / Schenieders. But The six Pentax lenses that I own are excellent, and for real world photography (not lab tests or pixel peeping) they are generally excellent and a joy to use.

If one is a measurer, then arguments can be made. If one is a photographer, then I'll stack the Pentax 645z and its lens line up against anything on the market.... and if price is taken into consideration then there's a mid-range Mercedes or BMW in-between putting together a Phase One or S Leica system and one from Pentax.

As for the picture quality being "cheep", I'll be polite and simply call bullshit.

I'll take the Pentax + a fine car, thank you very much.

Michael

In Michaels view the Pentax 645Z is the camera of the year:

The Pentax 645z is an evolution of the Pentax 645D of the past several years. But its new Sony-sourced 50MP sensor is so remarkable that it elevates the camera to a whole new level. Yes, this same sensor is also used in MF backs from Phase One and Hasselblad, but Pentax has added some "secret sauce" that makes their implementation quite a bit better than the other two, certainly in terms of high ISO image quality.

At about $8,500 the "Z" has created a price point that joins the top of the DSLR world to the bottom of the medium format world. Indeed it has already put pressure on Hasselblad, at least, who in the 4th Quarter of the year lowered the price of the Hasselblad H5D-40 camera and back by some $8,000 to reach down to the Pentax's price point. The H5D-40 does not have live view, and has a 40MP CCD sensor rather than a 50MP CMOS, but an almost 50% price reduction speaks to the changing medium format marketplace and the effect that Pentax appears to be having.

Market competition aside, many photographers will find the 645z to offer a combination of features, image quality, straightforward user interface and handling ease that puts it almost in a class of its own. Icing on the cake is the fact that it takes virtually all Pentax 645 lenses ever made, many of which are available on the used market at exceptional prices.

So I guess that Michael has found that inner beauty and intelligence in that ugly box.

Yes I have. I think it's an ugly boxy excuse for a camera, but I could find no fault with its functionality, in my test it did focus fast and well in horrible light. And I believe one can do available light portraiture quite well at ISO 6400 with that ugly box. As the french might say, "a gal can be smart without it showin' on her face"  

Edmund

[Joe Towner]

Pricewise, there are lots of options in the 40mp CCD based products, both new and used, and you should be able to get a new back and body for ~$10-12k.  Used/CPO drops a few thousands off.

There are a few things that the Z may offer you:
- Very quiet shutter, DPreview says it's quieter than an A7r, which matters if you shoot something that's going to jump at the noise (kids, dogs, etc)
- Live view on a huge articulating screen (I've used it composing on the ground and over my head, all hand held)
- 3 fps - if you're working with a kid whom just isn't having a good day
- High ISO equivalent to the 5d mk3, with more than 2x the file

If working at base ISO with lighting is your style, even the 645D is an option (40mp CCD, at half the cost of a Z). 

There is no wrong answer to the question, it's just a matter of how it works for you.

[paratom]

I am quite happy with the S-System because it handles a lot like a DSLR but with a much simpler user interface. And you can find good used prices sometimes.
If I didnt have the S I would probably go for the Pentax because of its weatherproof body and fast AF, even though I agree that when I handeled one at Photokina I found it kind of boxy and big and not the most pretty camera...but in the end it counts how it works. Do you have a chance to handle both systems before deciding?

[Kolor-Pikker]

I recently bought a 645Z, and have handled the 645D previously, as well as some other ~40MP cameras, so here are my thoughts:

- The 645Z is blazing fast compared to the 645D, overall responsiveness is comparable to a regular DSLR.
- The DF+ has nowhere near the build quality of the 645Z and the Leica S is better yet, but not by much.
- AF on the Z is quite fast with screw-drive lenses, the 150mm just snaps into place consistently, while the 55mm SDM feels slower.
- Usable ISO to 12,800 on the Z is just incredible and it also takes NR very well; the noise pattern looks a lot like fine film grain. There is no chroma noise at any ISO setting.
- The Z's highlights don't recover well, so I err on the side of under-exposure, and use the live view highlight alert to find the white point.
- Shutter speed of 2x focal length is adequate for sharp images, which makes hand-holding very easy, while using a DF+ I needed 3x at least.
- Z's shutter has an extended rolling sound, instead of a sharp clack or whirr you might get with some cameras, it's very pleasant.
- Both the Z and D have large well-placed controls for everything, while in comparison the DF+ has just a few buttons are all bunched up around the top LCD. It's clear they went for the Canon-style 4-button layout, but it's even less intuitive since the buttons are below the LCD.
- S lenses are sharp straight from open aperture, but also a good 2-3x the price of other brands. The older Pentax FA lenses and the 55mm 2.8 seem to resolve the sensor by f/5.6, and are optimal at f/8. I haven't used either of the new 90mm nor 28-45mm lenses, but others claim they are razor sharp even wide open, which at their price they well should be. I've only tested the 80mm LS on the Phase, and in terms of image quality it seems to roughly be the same as the Pentax 55mm.

If you are reliant on autofocus, the 645Z definitely has the most options available to you and will focus in -3EV. The Leica S and 645D have roughly comparable AF speed. I didn't like the AF on the DF+

[Paul2660]

As for boxy, I can't think of much more boxy than DF+ with a back attached......  No V grip, just the camera and back.

Oh, and I almost forgot,  I saw a post on time to zoom to 100%.  I realize the comparison is a  40MP Credo to the 645z not the a 80MP or 60MP back.  The smaller CCD backs may run faster.  However my IQ260 takes about 4 to 5 seconds to take an image from normal to 100%.  An if you move around add another 4 to 5 seconds for each move.  I have asked about this before , NET, is it standard, but have not gotten an answer.  I in fact had a post on this forum for that. 

To the OP, I may have a slow IQ260, I use all Scan Disc cards Extreme Pro, 32 and 16.  On average, my screen zoom is 4 seconds, with the longest being over 6 and shortest 3.  That includes the same time for each move.  I am moving via the touch screen.  I also have a lot of trouble when a card gets over 50% full as the above stated times get to be longer.   

Since I started tethering, I hardly use the in camera LCD anymore as the tethered view is so much better, both in speed and quality of image and size since it's on a Surface Pro. 

My old 160 was faster, by about 2 seconds most of the time. 

I would also add, since you are talking about both people and pets (which means people), I sure would plan on a solution that tethers well.  The Phase backs do this and very well to C1.  You will get instant feedback to your client.  I am not sure how the 645z tethers, I saw some notes on it, but I have not seen any reviews. 

Paul

[mstevensphoto]

awesome replies so far, very helpful. thanks!

I certainly love the real world info as opposed to the pixel peeping measurement. I have a retoucher friend who always says "if you can't see it, it's not there." if it looks and feels like I want I don't really care what the math says.

a few thoughts on reading the info. Most of the non-auto focus time things aren't going to be an issue. since I'm in a portrait studio scenario the client never gets to see what I do until it's retouched and ready to present. I also hate hate hate how digital has become a barrier between client and subject and I strictly limit my chomping. I'm interacting with them, not my camera screen. with little moving people either I got it or I didn't. that exact moment isn't re-creatable (close but not exact) so that is one reason I need quick, reliable auto focus. with my DSLR I never chimp for focus, even at f2.2 and I'm very rarely disappointed after the fact.

capture one would be a huge advantage, it's great stuff. similarly leaf shutter lenses. Do those of you with the 645z find that 1/125 is the true limit for your studio flash? I've had plenty of cameras that say 1/200th and you realize that 1/160th is a better upper end. 1/125th is really slow for ambient+flash situations.

the color of the mamiya is a good point, how do the pentax users find it in the real world?

[Kolor-Pikker]

I don't find 1/125th limiting, but then I don't try to stop action or overpower the sun either. When I do shoot flash + ambi I usually drag the shutter anyway. Chances are if you need fast flash sync, you probably know what to look for, otherwise it's not much worse than on a typical DSLR.

As per usual, try some of these cameras out for yourself if possible, it's the only way you can get real world experience. The Z was perfect for me, but not until I went through every MF system available short of Hasselblad, since going by just the spec sheet it was the opposite of what I needed.

[ndevlin]

For your application there is no contest.  The higher ISO and better focusing of the Pentax make it the clear winner. 

I can't imagine you need to tether to shoot pets, but if that's your thing, I can tell you that the Pentax tethers very nicely with Image Transmitter 2, and the transfer speeds into Lightroom are entirely satisfactory.

Not saying the Credo's not a nice back. It is.  But that is yesterday's technology, and you are in an application where the flexibility and speed of the Pentax will pay dividends.

Cheers,

- N.

[Gel]

The 645z, no question.

[mstevensphoto]

those of you with real world experience: How to the previous generation Pentax lenses focus and look with the 645z? The lineup of D lenses is paltry to say the least.

[Gel]

I've hired the Z for a few weeks and only have the 55mm and 150mm FA but in both cases they lock really well and accurately.

I normally shoot weddings with a Canon 1DX and the AF performs just as well in the short time I've been using it. Certainly better than the Hasselblad which really seems to struggle in mid to lower light and much better than the DF+

[Joe Towner]

The focus of D lenses are really slow compared to the FA lenses - by a factor of 2-3x.  The FA lenses are really slick in that they're small and light.  I've hired the 45-85. 80-160, 150 and 200 so far and all have served me well.  I got the 400mm/5.6 yesterday and my initial impressions are really good - it's so light it's almost funny how they put a tripod collar on it.

The DFA 28-45, 55 and 90 are all amazing lenses.  The 28-45 is huge and heavy - more than the HC35-90, but a whole lot of fun.  Unless you're out in the elements, doing just FA lenses should be fine.

[ndevlin]

Focus on the 645z is really quite good.  Better than any other MF (though not by a huge measure in good light), comparable to the median of the mirrorless systems, and behind the leading edge of 35mm DSLRs. But for any application that the camera is suitable for, the AF is just fine.

- N.