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Author Topic: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting  (Read 3332 times)

armand

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Initially this was a part of a different post but I thought it's worth it's own topic.


Comparing the Fuji APS-C and Nikon full-frame, in real life handheld shoots of non-moving objects with so so light, requiring 1/FL and above base ISO shots, my Fuji X-T1 system is as good or better than the D750. This is valid when you need equivalent DOF or even when you want the best out of the system.

The starting point is that Nikon has 1-1.5 stops advantage compared to the Fuji APS-C based on sensor size only.

For one I have brighter lenses on the Fuji side but DOF they are matched. If you keep it this level the Nikon full frame has the cost advantage (as their F1.8 primes tend to be a little cheaper) and it's not that far behind weight wise if you only use primes.
However, to get sharp shots, on nonstabilized Fuji 1/FL is adequate, while on Nikon I need at least 2/FL. So there is goes the sensor size advantage. Having a brighter lens for the same DOF means even lower ISO so the Fuji is at least equal (I take into account the higher resolution on the Nikon).


Moving to VR lenses the situation is even worse. For Nikon I need 1/FL while on Fuji I can get away with 1/4FL to 1/8FL in which case the advantage is even bigger. Not too mention that for equivalent DOF the Fuji will be brighter.

Yes, the the D750 has a resolution advantage but even when downsized this probably doesn't account for more than half a stop.
Yes, the D750 has a higher DR, but when you use higher use and double or more compared to the Fuji that DR advantage is going down.


If you use similar aperture lenses for the Nikon they are pricier and heavier. After using both system in parallel now I get it when they say F1.4 is F1.4 regardless of the sensor.
In order to use the sensor advantage you need to pay and carry significantly more.
If you use equivalent DOF lenses you might be cheaper or more expensive (the more F1.8 lenses the cheaper), you might be heavier (most likely if you don't get telephotos) or lighter, but strictly image quality you will not be ahead, if anything you might be worse in some situations. You can still use the full frame for their focus advantages, better flash, superior movies and lens selection.


Many of you might have already reached the same conclusion. Of course if the light is good or you only use a tripod the point is moot. If the full frame will come with less mirror/shutter shock then it might come ahead by a little.

PS. I don't have an m43 system so I'm not sure how it will compare other than the weight advantage will be bigger.

Abe R. Ration

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2014, 05:01:22 am »

Initially this was a part of a different post but I thought it's worth it's own topic.


Comparing the Fuji APS-C and Nikon full-frame, in real life handheld shoots of non-moving objects with so so light, requiring 1/FL and above base ISO shots, my Fuji X-T1 system is as good or better than the D750. This is valid when you need equivalent DOF or even when you want the best out of the system.
1/FL surely means 1/eFL (equivalent FL) as shaking is not a function of focal length, but field of view. I'm sure you meant this, but just to make it clear.

The starting point is that Nikon has 1-1.5 stops advantage compared to the Fuji APS-C based on sensor size only.
If one wants to have advantage with a larger format, one needs to feed the larger format with more light. You will either need to trade DOF for light, shutter speed for light or increase ambient light.

More on this very subject here.

There are no free lunches for any format size.

If you use similar aperture lenses for the Nikon they are pricier and heavier. After using both system in parallel now I get it when they say F1.4 is F1.4 regardless of the sensor.
f/1,4 means nothing more than that the entrance pupil of the lens has the diameter of the focal length divided by 1,4. It has nothing to do with the format used. However, the effect of that focal length and that aperture are different with different formats. A camera with iPhone sensor sized imager with a f/2,8 lens would really have not much in common with a medium format camera wiith f/2,8 lens. Unless of course we stop the medium format down by the relevant crop factor  ;D

In order to use the sensor advantage you need to pay and carry significantly more.
I heard that the Sony A7 series is quite small, and the now old and obsolete original A7 isn't terribly expensive any more. Unfortunately the lens lineup is small (in quantity, not size) and not excatly cheap. Luckily one can use M-mount lenses is manual focus is all right. They're not exactly large and some are quite affordable with great image quality.

Regardless, if we are happy with the performance curve limit of a smaller format and anything beyond that would be a waste, then it is likely that the smaller format camera+lenses will be smaller in size and weigth as the larger formats often lack in lenses with equivalent apertures: an APS-C might have 200mm f/5,6 lens, but it's hard to find a full frame 300mm f/8,4 lens, so in practise the FF user would probably have to use 300/5,6 which is naturally much larger than 200/5,6 due to significantly larger aperture diameter. Though, the FF user might want to consider the same 200mm f/5,6 the APS-C user, even if it's an APS-C only lens, and use it with a teleconverter. Of course some systems don't have TCs and they're not necessarily practical outside of the longer focal lengths.

If you use equivalent DOF lenses you might be cheaper or more expensive (the more F1.8 lenses the cheaper), you might be heavier (most likely if you don't get telephotos) or lighter, but strictly image quality you will not be ahead, if anything you might be worse in some situations. You can still use the full frame for their focus advantages, better flash, superior movies and lens selection.
The image quality is (almost) all about light - the more you collect, the better image quality. If you want to have the same DOF, the lens will transmit the same amount of light to the image sensor regardless of it's format (disregarding transmission losses of the lens for the sake of simplicity). But if you can have longer shutter speed or use a flash (or other means to increase light levels), the larger formats tend to have signal-to-noise advantage as their maximum signal collecting capacity (i.e. how much signal can be collected before saturation) tends to be larger. If not, then it's a toss up regardless of format.

When it comes to lens sizes, the small format advantage is a bit of a myth. This may sound controverisal or flat out wrong, but if we consider lenses which do the same job it is largely the case. To do the same job you need to have smaller f-numbers on smaller formats, thus the lenses will get larger and more complex - in some cases the smaller format may surprisingly need a larger lens to do the same job a larger format does with a smaller lens. A good example is Cosina Voigtländer 25mm f/0,95 for M4/3 format - from the same company comes 50mm f/1,5 for full fame which is half the size, a bit faster (f/1,5 vs. f/1,8 normalized to same format), and likely optically superior.

Many of you might have already reached the same conclusion. Of course if the light is good or you only use a tripod the point is moot. If the full frame will come with less mirror/shutter shock then it might come ahead by a little.
Big sensor doesn't have an inherit advantage over small one if the light is fixed to certain amount - the same DOF and shutter speed and ambient light. Well, there is one inherit advantage - the the amount of light is so large that the smaller sensor will saturate some parts of the image, this won't happen with the larger sensor.

Amount shutter shock - the Sony A7 and A7s are quite immune to it with the electronic first curtain. A7r unfortunately is not.

PS. I don't have an m43 system so I'm not sure how it will compare other than the weight advantage will be bigger.
The weight advantage is mainly cause of the body and the slower lenses - if we compare mirrorless to mirrorless - if the lenses are of the same speeds, then the FF lenses might surprisignly be lighter. But if the lenses have the same f-number, then the M4/3 will certainly have an advantage. I'm just not sure what the point of comparing different formats with the same f-stop is in this context as f-stop is tied to the (physical) focal length.
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2014, 06:58:48 am »

Others have compared m43 to the at the time unrivalled FF champion. Unthinkable? Not at all. IBIS is the great equalizer.

http://www.pekkapotka.com/journal/2013/5/3/nikon-d800e-and-olympus-om-d.html
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scooby70

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2014, 09:49:21 am »

When I got my first DSLR I think I adapted quite quickly to APS-C but after seven years with a Canon 20D I changed to a 5D and was surprised to find myself shooting at longer focal lengths and smaller apertures and fighting shutter speed and ISO for DoF.

I not have Panasonic MFT and Sony A7 and although the image quality of the 5D and A7 are very good I think that for hand held shooting the sweet spot for me personally is more towards APS-S and MFT than FF. One problem with the smaller formats though is not being able to shoot at the widest apertures in good light without ND's as many bodies are limited to a max shutter speed of 1/4000 sec and / or a base ISO of 200.
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dwswager

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2014, 11:05:46 am »

Many of you might have already reached the same conclusion. Of course if the light is good or you only use a tripod the point is moot. If the full frame will come with less mirror/shutter shock then it might come ahead by a little.

PS. I don't have an m43 system so I'm not sure how it will compare other than the weight advantage will be bigger.


I have to admit that the entirety of this post made my head hurt.  I think it was trying to decipher the original intent given it was not necessarily expressed in the clearest manner.

If you meant to say that In Body image Stabilization (IBIS) provides significant benefits in some situations, that is certainly true.

However, everything is a trade off.  Sometimes you want more DOF and others you want LESS!!!  Sometimes you have to shoot from a fixed spot and the differences in apparent focal length is good and sometimes it's bad.  Other times, you can move closer or farther and perspective isn't the issue.

If we I had a D750 and D7100 (I have D810 and D7100, but using D750 since now both have 24MP), there is no question that the image quality ceiling on the D750 is higher.  The question now becomes  Does the image making opportunity lend itself to attaining that higher quality?  If I'm shooting sports where I know I will be at the longer end of focal length, then I will usually trade off image quality (DR, Color Depth, ISO performance) for more pixels on target for example. 

With respect to size and weight, it really depends on what and how you shoot.  I find a heavier camera much easier to handle and hold steady.  Obviously, there comes a tipping point where it becomes either too heavy or you're holding it too long. I ski with a chest pack and have had as much as a D300 with 70-200mm f/2.8 (smart enough to remove the MB-10 Vertical Grip).  But if I were a mountain climber, I doubt I would try that stunt. 
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kers

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2014, 11:36:26 am »

... I ski with a chest pack and have had as much as a D300 with 70-200mm f/2.8 (smart enough to remove the MB-10 Vertical Grip). ....

Why not use  the  F4 70-200... and save 700gr and some volume (unless you ski in the dark...)
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armand

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2014, 01:22:11 pm »

I have to admit that the entirety of this post made my head hurt.  I think it was trying to decipher the original intent given it was not necessarily expressed in the clearest manner.

While I wasn't maybe very clear if you read the second paragraph you have the summary of what I was trying to say.

I didn't mention anything about IBIS although maybe I should have had.

Here is my point again, in my experience with Nikon d750 and Fujifilm X-T1:
for handheld conditions where the light is not good enough to use base ISO and there aren't moving objects because of unexpected high shutter speeds on the Nikon, the APS-C Fuji provides similar or usually better quality for when similar DOF is required.
A secondary point: even when you use the brightest lenses (at maximum aperture) for a given FOV, again when you need higher than base ISO and you are handheld, to achieve similar quality with this full frame will require a much more expensive and heavier setup.


Maybe in your experience it's easier to hold steady the D750 but it's the opposite for me. I feel the camera moving when I take the shot, and it's slightly complex (has a rotational component to it).
Evidently everything is a compromise, but I didn't expect this one. I still have a use for a full frame but I wanted to put in words this issue (again, handheld and low light!!!) for others who are in a similar position.


PS. My math was wrong in the first post, it's supposed to be the other way around for minimum exposure time to get sharp photos, 4-8/FL for Fuji and 1/FL for Nikon for stabilized lenses, and 1/FL for Fuji and 1/2FL for Nikon non stabilized lenses.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 01:24:18 pm by armand »
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dwswager

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2014, 02:24:02 pm »

Why not use  the  F4 70-200... and save 700gr and some volume (unless you ski in the dark...)

While I like to get the last lift up in the evening, I don't own the f/4 and I do own the f/2.8.
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dwswager

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2014, 02:42:55 pm »

Here is my point again, in my experience with Nikon d750 and Fujifilm X-T1:
for handheld conditions where the light is not good enough to use base ISO and there aren't moving objects because of unexpected high shutter speeds on the Nikon, the APS-C Fuji provides similar or usually better quality for when similar DOF is required.
A secondary point: even when you use the brightest lenses (at maximum aperture) for a given FOV, again when you need higher than base ISO and you are handheld, to achieve similar quality with this full frame will require a much more expensive and heavier setup.

All I can say is that I own a D810 (Full Frame, similar sensor to the D750) and a D7100 (DX APS-C same size as the Fuji X-T1).  The D7100 has one of the best sensor subsystems of any APS-C camera and the D810 blows it out of the water!  I just shot high school basketball last night as a learning exercise with the D810 using ISOs from 400 to 6400 and all I can say is WOW!  I was shooting Large, Fine JPG with neutral picture control and Auto WB (Forgot to pocket the Expodisc). 

I don't shoot indoor sports very often and was actually having a discussion with a guy who does and my comment was that it takes almost a whole different lens set to shoot indoor sports well.  That was before the D810!!!!  Before the D810 I would have been using fast primes.  With the D810, I have no problem using the 24-70mm f/2.8 and 70-200mm f/2.8 to shoot indoors now.  And with better image quality than when using lower ISO  at bigger apertures.
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armand

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2014, 03:40:07 pm »

All I can say is that I own a D810 (Full Frame, similar sensor to the D750) and a D7100 (DX APS-C same size as the Fuji X-T1).  The D7100 has one of the best sensor subsystems of any APS-C camera and the D810 blows it out of the water!  I just shot high school basketball last night as a learning exercise with the D810 using ISOs from 400 to 6400 and all I can say is WOW!  I was shooting Large, Fine JPG with neutral picture control and Auto WB (Forgot to pocket the Expodisc). 

I don't shoot indoor sports very often and was actually having a discussion with a guy who does and my comment was that it takes almost a whole different lens set to shoot indoor sports well.  That was before the D810!!!!  Before the D810 I would have been using fast primes.  With the D810, I have no problem using the 24-70mm f/2.8 and 70-200mm f/2.8 to shoot indoors now.  And with better image quality than when using lower ISO  at bigger apertures.

So what exposure times were you using? I suspect way above 1/2FL or more which doesn't fit in what I said above.

dwswager

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2014, 03:52:29 pm »

So what exposure times were you using? I suspect way above 1/2FL or more which doesn't fit in what I said above.

Well above 1/FL as I was shooting sports!  But that is to stop action, not to get sharpness with static shots.  I've shot the 24-70mm sharp at 1/40th on both the D7100 and D810 with good sharpness with static subjects.  Of course, the 1/FL is a guideline and shooting a 85mm f/1.8 and shooting the 70-200mm f/2.8 at 85mm are 2 different things.  The longer length and heavier weight of the zoom make it less steady. 
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armand

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2014, 07:04:14 pm »

Well, you are a better man than me.

For an equivalent FL I never had problems getting sharp enough pictures at 1/FL. With D750 I cannot, not consistently.

For fun I attached a picture I took 7 years that was almost sharp, probably would have been have I chosen half the shutter speed.
42 mm equiv, 1 sec, handheld with no support, single shot (no burst), circle was moving a little (look at the left bottom corner for sharpness)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 07:06:02 pm by armand »
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armand

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Re: Another take on DOF and sensor size advantages - for handheld shooting
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2015, 10:51:24 pm »

It took me a while to find this post but it looks some other people found similar problems that I described here: dpreview . It might be also a problem with the VR system.

Quote
It's worth noting though that mirror and shutter-induced shock can introduce some softness at longer focal lengths and slower shutter speeds when pairing the D750 with Nikon's 'VR' lenses.
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