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Author Topic: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !  (Read 26105 times)

amolitor

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2014, 02:03:51 pm »

It's not clear to me who's getting the money.

Gursky's work is selling for millions but on the secondary market. Ditto Sherman. Is Lik (Or Lik Incorporated) seeing this money? It sort of sounds like it.
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Theodoros

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2014, 02:25:32 pm »

Well... there's one thing for sure (which I happen to know well due to occupation)... Art collectors don't choose their investments according to their likes (at least they don't choose their most valuable investments with that criteria - they may only have some cheaper ones that they buy because they like them)... Usually, buying art by a collector, is a process that involves many people (consultants, advisors, art marketeers etc ...& the collectors) and is based on pre-judgment on what will be valuable in the future... So, it works more like a stock market and it involves comparable (financial) risks to stock markets... There are very expensive investments, which are of much higher values because they are considered as timeless "safe investments" (but they provide less percentage of profit - but minimum risk) and then there are "aggressive investments" (of much lower values, like the photo-graphs mentioned here) that the criteria behind them, is of huge profit, but with the risk of failure (of the investment to provide profit) highly involved...
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 02:43:56 pm by Theodoros »
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amolitor

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2014, 03:58:22 pm »

Well, I think it varies. Sure, it's a pile of money, and so there's usually some notion of investment and some consultation with the Money Guys.

But in the first place Fine Art is a horrible investment anyways. Selling a piece at all is pretty tricky in a couple of ways, and even if you can, making money on the transaction isn't all that likely. The gallerists of course talk it up, but they're full of crap.

Just wait, in 10 years the Shermans and Gurskys and Liks will be going for 6 figures, or even 5, instead of 7 as the current fad for extremely expensive photographs is replaced by something else.
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Theodoros

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2014, 04:14:19 pm »

Well, I think it varies. Sure, it's a pile of money, and so there's usually some notion of investment and some consultation with the Money Guys.

But in the first place Fine Art is a horrible investment anyways. Selling a piece at all is pretty tricky in a couple of ways, and even if you can, making money on the transaction isn't all that likely. The gallerists of course talk it up, but they're full of crap.

Just wait, in 10 years the Shermans and Gurskys and Liks will be going for 6 figures, or even 5, instead of 7 as the current fad for extremely expensive photographs is replaced by something else.


I haven't understand why it won't be 8 or 4 figures in ten years.... where is the evidence or the reasoning behind them being 6 or 5 or 7 figures?

Also... I haven't understand why ALL Shermans, Gurskys and Liks will be undervalued and will all be of the same future...? Are they all of the same value or are they all "just photos"...? ...I'm afraid your post is full of "thin air"... Have you seen a photo-graph of Gursky or Sherman or Lik ever? ...(I mean a ...photo-graph)! I believe that most that post here haven't....
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 04:24:36 pm by Theodoros »
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roskav

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2014, 04:28:02 pm »

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Theodoros

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2014, 04:33:53 pm »

Not sure if this adds to the discussion but the comments are fun to read.

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2014/dec/10/most-expensive-photograph-ever-hackneyed-tasteless#comments

R
Imagine the author writing this when Adams or Bresson or Kappa where around...  :D IMO the "author" is a pure web troll... not different to those that post their "opinions" or "images" to ...wherever in web!  ???
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Manoli

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2014, 04:38:46 pm »

One needs to read the press release. Sometimes it's not what they say but rather what they don't say.
Secondly,  a quick wikipedia search brings up this list of most expensive photographs.

Of the top twenty, only one has this qualification: 'Anonymous collector. This purported sale was a private sale and not verifiable. All other sales on this list are public auction records' – yup, no prizes for guessing which sale they're referring to. And to further cast a modicum of doubt, the only sources listed are PMA Newsline, Peta Pixel, PR Newswire and Art Daily.

Taking three random recognized artists  Gursky, Crewdson and Sugimoto  (irrespective of one's personal opinion) and doing a quick google search < artist sotheby's> brought an immediate (first) hit for each one :

gursky lot 7, sold,
crewdson, lot sold, #1 from an edition of 6 plus 2 artists proofs
sugimoto, lot sold, #8 / from an edition of 6

Compare the above to Lik's 'New Release' posting on his website (screenshot below) – an edition of 950 limited and 45 artist proofs.

So today, out of the blue, PR Newswire release the news that, not one, but three works have been sold, for a total of $10,000,000 and in one 'coup' gives Peter Lik not only top spot, but a total of 4 entries in the top twenty. Again there is no identifiable buyer, no confirmation of any kind that its an arms length transaction and the only guys who are 'speaking' are the attorneys. There's no verifiable track record, just a whisper of a 'top-secret' printing process - ( of course one that guys like Jeff Schewe and Mark D Segal are blissfully ignorant of) – and an avalanche of self publicity.

Now, hypothetically speaking, if I was a cynical b'stard (which of course I'm not), given only the details above,  I might be excused for suspecting that this could possibly be what, in stock market jargon, is sometimes referred to as 'pumping the market' and 'front-running'. It attracts attention, artificially raises the perceived value of Lik existing art, and starts a buying circle which feeds on itself – an upward spiral.

But being a trusting soul, I've no reason to doubt that it's all true. It's just that if one of his works were to be sold at a free-market auction ( Sotheby's or Christie's) much like Gursky et al we'd have a far more representative and verifiable reference point as to exactly where Peter Lik stands in the pantheon of modern day artists.


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Theodoros

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2014, 04:52:12 pm »

Beyond money or value competition, I would be very much interested on your own reasoning as to why (the reasoning behind it) Lik is in the Pantheon...

P.S. I don't say that he isn't... I just want some reasoning behind the post (which may be taken as an insult to Gursky)... as otherwise, it stands as a "bold argument" IMO... I mean, I want your art experience and superior knowledge with the reasoning behind it to support the O/P... In fact, I demand it...!
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amolitor

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2014, 05:03:38 pm »

I haven't understand why it won't be 8 or 4 figures in ten years.... where is the evidence or the reasoning behind them being 6 or 5 or 7 figures?

Um. What? evidence regarding future events is notoriously hard to obtain, and reasoning is thus: more high-priced art drops in value over time than increases in value. That's an assertion, which you can look and and attempt to find evidence for, or against. If you like.

Also... I haven't understand why ALL Shermans, Gurskys and Liks will be undervalued and will all be of the same future...? Are they all of the same value or are they all "just photos"...? ...I'm afraid your post is full of "thin air"... Have you seen a photo-graph of Gursky or Sherman or Lik ever? ...(I mean a ...photo-graph)! I believe that most that post here haven't....

Huh? I don't understand any of this very well.

In general, prices follow the artist more than the piece, so if one gursky sells for less, this tends to devalue the other gurskys. It's probably not universal. What does this have to do with anything?

What's this about "photo-graph" as opposed to "photograph"? I don't follow, and I don't see what having seen either has to do with anything.
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Theodoros

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2014, 05:12:26 pm »

Um. What? evidence regarding future events is notoriously hard to obtain, and reasoning is thus: more high-priced art drops in value over time than increases in value. That's an assertion, which you can look and and attempt to find evidence for, or against. If you like.

Huh? I don't understand any of this very well.

In general, prices follow the artist more than the piece, so if one gursky sells for less, this tends to devalue the other gurskys. It's probably not universal. What does this have to do with anything?

What's this about "photo-graph" as opposed to "photograph"? I don't follow, and I don't see what having seen either has to do with anything.

Oh no... not again! ...money isn't resoning, I'm looking for reasoning to support OPINION as ARTISTIC value... One selling more expensive, doesn't make him better... that's common logic! ...it makes him successful, but reasoning is (self) CRITERIA (about art - photography in consequence)... not money!
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Theodoros

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2014, 05:19:42 pm »



What's this about "photo-graph" as opposed to "photograph"? I don't follow, and I don't see what having seen either has to do with anything.


Yes... that's obvious to me (that you (or others) don't understand the difference)... a photo-graph is the artists visualisation printed in a PHOTO-GRAPH... a "print" is the outcome of "photographers"... that have treated their images to AN outcome without ever have visualised it...
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amolitor

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2014, 05:25:35 pm »

Oooookay then.
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Manoli

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2014, 05:38:32 pm »

I just want some reasoning behind the post (which may be taken as an insult to Gursky)... In fact, I demand it...!

Dear Theodore,
ηρέμησε !

The title of the thread is 'facetious', it's treating a serious issue with deliberately inappropriate humour . It's not at all a reflection on Gursky - anything but - its a gentle ridicule of both the title of the press release and the front page of Lik's website.

Recognised artist(s), usurped in the money stakes by a relatively unknown (Lik) with an, as yet, unverifiable track record.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 06:09:09 am by Manoli »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2014, 05:41:00 pm »

Any photo competition judge would tell you that the problem with this photograph is the central placement of the Phantom.
If Lik adhered to the rule of thirds and mixed in a little bit of color to the dust, that piece could be easily worth twice as much. I wonder if he used Olympus or Panasonic.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 05:46:13 pm by LesPalenik »
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Richard Osbourne

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2014, 05:48:20 pm »

I saw Peter Lik's gallery in New York a few years back and my jaw dropped to the floor. Beautiful presentation of images - both framing and interior design. Probably the highest quality photographic art I've seen, taken as a package. I'm not necessarily talking about the images, which I happen to like, just the whole deal if I was a customer. He's giving people something that is actually really special so it doesn't surprise me that he's selling one off pieces at 7 figures.

All credit to him for being successful. It takes extraordinary energy, commitment, focus and vision to create any business on that scale, let alone a creative business. Personally, I'd like to emulate his success rather than complain!

Theodoros

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2014, 05:53:44 pm »

Dear Theodore,
ηρέμησε !

The title of the thread is 'facetious', it's treating a serious issue with deliberately inappropriate humour . It's not at all a reflection on Gursky - anything but - its a gentle ridicule of the implication that , prima facie, is a consequence of the alleged record sale.

Recognised artist(s), usurped in the money stakes by a relatively unknown (Lik) with an, as yet, unverifiable track record.


ηρεμησε=be calm! ....an advise? ...Μανωλακη will you "advise me"? ...Thanks buddy, I don't see where you've ever spotted my temper going high... It's simple reasoning that you have been asked for... the same that you fail to provide talking about money all the time! It's your bold post... not mine! ...I'm only defending photo-graphy and photo-graphers here... not capital!
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Theodoros

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2014, 05:56:35 pm »

I saw Peter Lik's gallery in New York a few years back and my jaw dropped to the floor. Beautiful presentation of images - both framing and interior design. Probably the highest quality photographic art I've seen, taken as a package. I'm not necessarily talking about the images, which I happen to like, just the whole deal if I was a customer. He's giving people something that is actually really special so it doesn't surprise me that he's selling one off pieces at 7 figures.

All credit to him for being successful. It takes extraordinary energy, commitment, focus and vision to create any business on that scale, let alone a creative business. Personally, I'd like to emulate his success rather than complain!
Sure... but that doesn't mean one has to ridicule other photo-graphers based on ....money!
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Hulyss

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« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2014, 06:19:34 pm »

This is life. It is the sum of hard work and, at a certain level, chance.

This chance can reach all of you, guys (but chance like to be ignited some times = hard work, drugs...).
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 06:22:54 pm by Hulyss »
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Manoli

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2014, 06:23:31 pm »

Theodore,

In this context the correct translation is 'calm down' and it has nothing to do with your 'temper going high' but rather an appeal to not get over-excited.

When a press release starts with the title

< Legendary Photographer Peter Lik Shatters World Record With $6.5 Million Sale Of "Phantom"
Award-Winning Photographer Now Holds Four of the Top 20 Most Expensive Photographs Ever Sold>


It  brings money into the equation. Not only money for money's sake but it also infers a yardstick by which the art market values his artwork.  It has zero to do with ridiculing anybody and everything to do with questioning the validity of the implication.

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Theodoros

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Re: Andreas Gursky - take a hike !
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2014, 06:32:08 pm »

Theodore,

In this context the correct translation is 'calm down' and it has nothing to do with your 'temper going high' but rather an appeal to not get over-excited.

When a press release starts with the title

< Legendary Photographer Peter Lik Shatters World Record With $6.5 Million Sale Of "Phantom"
Award-Winning Photographer Now Holds Four of the Top 20 Most Expensive Photographs Ever Sold>


It  brings money into the equation. Not only money for money's sake but it also infers a yardstick by which the art market values his artwork.  It has zero to do with ridiculing anybody and everything to do with questioning the validity of the implication.



It has been answered... (back on No.24)... If I may remind/repeat...

"Well... there's one thing for sure (which I happen to know well due to occupation)... Art collectors don't choose their investments according to their likes (at least they don't choose their most valuable investments with that criteria - they may only have some cheaper ones that they buy because they like them)... Usually, buying art by a collector, is a process that involves many people (consultants, advisors, art marketeers etc ...& the collectors) and is based on pre-judgment on what will be valuable in the future... So, it works more like a stock market and it involves comparable (financial) risks to stock markets... There are very expensive investments, which are of much higher values because they are considered as timeless "safe investments" (but they provide less percentage of profit - but minimum risk) and then there are "aggressive investments" (of much lower values, like the photo-graphs mentioned here) that the criteria behind them, is of huge profit, but with the risk of failure (of the investment to provide profit) highly involved..."
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