Pros & Cons - New Pentax 645Z or second hand Phase One P45+

[Omni Images]

I'm looking to move up to medium format digital for landscape.
The introduction of the Pentax 645Z has just made it affordable for me.
A kit with the 55mm lens is coming in at around 12K here in Australia, I think I will be able to manage that price.
Recently I have been looking at the second hand sites and seeing some good value Phase One kits for sale now for not a lot more than the new Pentax, making me think perhaps I can realistically afford to go a fraction further cost wise and get a Phase One. ... Which I would LOVE... but around 15K would be my limit .... so that is my ceiling.
Delving further into the specs I see the Pentax has a cmos sensor where as the older P backs are ccd. The newer IQ backs are now cmos.

Am I going backwards if I go for the older ccd sensor, seeing as Phase One has moved to cmos sensors also ?

Another minor issues would be weather sealing .. as I often shoot in harsh wet/snow conditions etc ... Phase One doesn't seem to great on that point, but the new Pentax is pretty much waterproof.

Over all image quality is my main concern, so lens quality is a big factor to me, so buying into a system with better lenses I feel is important.

I think the Phase one has a larger physical sized sensor .. is that a plus ?

I will only be using it for landscape work, sunrise sunset .. general low light work but day time too, using low iso on tripod etc.

Any advise and information to help with my decision would be much appreciated.

I am leaning towards buying into a second hand Phase One, and perhaps "one day" be able to upgrade to an IQ back.
I also use a Linhof 617s and have a Horseman 4x5.
Also interested to hear more about an Alpa with a P1 back too ... could that be a consideration ?

Thank you.

[Doug Peterson]

Pros for P45+ in the situation you outlined:
- Compatibility with a tech cam
--- Rise/fall/shift/tilt/swing on every lens*
--- Unbelievably good lenses
--- Variable aspect ratio via intra-image-circle stitching
--- more-manual/Traditional/slower/more-tactile/more-visceral shooting experience (opinion of course)
--- Did I mention these lenses are phenomenal?
- Compatibility with Capture One
--- color controlled from start to end of chain
- Service, Support, Warranty Options**
- Upgrade options: under the current P+ upgrade promo it's very possible you'd get more value for your P45+ trade-in then you'd pay for a P45+. Over at getdpi.com they call medium format "Dante's Inferno" because people get a taste of medium format quality and end up upgrading even further into it.

Did I mention the tech camera lenses? 

Anyway, I'd suggest working with a dealer (selfish suggestion since we are one) to get raw files from the 45+ and make some of your own edits and prints from them. Don't rely (at least exclusively) on numbers/charts/graphs.

Durability wise you'll find the p+ series was tested in fire, ice, and water and are used by a great many customer (including many on this forum) in trying field conditions.

After that I'd say you should go out and shoot some with each option. They are both very good cameras, but they are also pretty drastically different tools, each with pros and cons. You should make the choice after having actually taken pictures - nothing else that someone else can say will matter next to that experience.

*depends on which tech camera platform you select; see our tech camera overview for more info
**Will depend a bit on how you buy and where you are located. We are a dealer for the US and for Phase One gear we can provide immediate expert phone/email support to our clients, repairs are fast and reliable, and loaner gear can be made available in the case it's needed.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Personally, I shoot with a P45+ on a Hasselblad 555/ELD, check this thread if interested in that option:
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/52041-some-p45-hasselblad-v-series-samples.html


This thread may be interesting regarding CMOS vs. CCD colour rendition:
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/52173-if-ccd-rendering-can-achieved-cmos-where-examples-2.html#post609275
My posting is a good starting point, but check the whole thread. The 645D uses same generation Kodak CCD as the P45+.

A lot of raw images from my camera 555 ELD/P45+ here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up?start=5

Short responses to your questions below:

Keep in mind, your mileage may vary!

Best regards
Erik

I'm looking to move up to medium format digital for landscape.
The introduction of the Pentax 645Z has just made it affordable for me.
A kit with the 55mm lens is coming in at around 12K here in Australia, I think I will be able to manage that price.
Recently I have been looking at the second hand sites and seeing some good value Phase One kits for sale now for not a lot more than the new Pentax, making me think perhaps I can realistically afford to go a fraction further cost wise and get a Phase One. ... Which I would LOVE... but around 15K would be my limit .... so that is my ceiling.
Delving further into the specs I see the Pentax has a cmos sensor where as the older P backs are ccd. The newer IQ backs are now cmos.
Well, CMOS has less shadow noise, higher ISO, better dynamic range. IQ-250 sensor is same as the ones in IQ-150/IQ-250. It is made by Sony and AD-conversion is on sensor, which is a good thing. It also means that the bits are coming from Sony, really.

Am I going backwards if I go for the older ccd sensor, seeing as Phase One has moved to cmos sensors also ?
Yes, but many claims CCD is favorable. Technically, this is probably not the case. CMOS offer great live view.
Another minor issues would be weather sealing .. as I often shoot in harsh wet/snow conditions etc ... Phase One doesn't seem to great on that point, but the new Pentax is pretty much waterproof.
Yes, Pentax is know to be water proof for real. There are stories of Phase One equipment surviving harsh conditions, but you may be better of with Pentax.

Over all image quality is my main concern, so lens quality is a big factor to me, so buying into a system with better lenses I feel is important.
There are two discussion threads about Pentax lens quality here at LuLa. Check them out. Phase One has some great lenses from Schneider but they are expensive. Older Mamiya lenses are often great.
I think the Phase one has a larger physical sized sensor .. is that a plus ?
Yes, it is a plus. The main plus may be that the P45+ has 1.1 crop factor while the Pentaz 645Z/IQ-250 etc have 1.3X crop factors. So you need wider lenses with the smaller sensors, which may be more expensive. Not a lot of cheap ultra wides around
I will only be using it for landscape work, sunrise sunset .. general low light work but day time too, using low iso on tripod etc.
Should be fine, don't forget MLU.
Any advise and information to help with my decision would be much appreciated.

I am leaning towards buying into a second hand Phase One, and perhaps "one day" be able to upgrade to an IQ back.
I also use a Linhof 617s and have a Horseman 4x5.
Also interested to hear more about an Alpa with a P1 back too … could that be a consideration ?
Personally, I would say that using a back with a technical camera is a very interesting option.
Thank you.

[FMueller]

The ability of using a Medium Format digital back on a tech cam is not to be lightly dismissed.

It is a rabbit hole for your money but the quality difference of typical tech cam lenses is easily seen, and for many the sole reason for bearing the additional cost and complication.

And yes, the sensor on the P45+ is larger than all the current CMOS chips including the 645z. That has an effect on the image as well but that is a bit more subjective.

[Ken R]

Hi, Doug pretty much covered a LOT with his post.

I would like to add that the Pentax 645z is like a larger Nikon D810 with better POTENTIAL image quality but with a smaller lens selection. The Pentax is VERY easy to work with right from the moment you get it. Search around for reviews and user experiences on the lenses available for the Pentax 645 system. If the lenses available are good enough for your needs and the focal lengths you normally use or would like to use then the limited lens selection is a non-issue. My pick for landscape would be the DA645 28-45mm lens although at $5,000 it is not exactly cheap and it is pretty large and heavy but easy to filter and covers a VERY useful range for landscape and architecture work with the 50 mp sensor.

The main issue I have with the Pentax 645z (the same goes for the 645D which I had) is that customer support / service is pretty much non-existent in the USA and basically worldwide except Japan. So if anything goes wrong with your camera and it needs to be repaired it needs to go to Japan and customers have reported consistently being without the camera for about 10 weeks. Not cool at all for a $9k camera.

With a Digital back you will get the option of basically building up a custom system since a back can be mounted in a VERY wide range of bodies and mated to a wide range of lenses as a result. A good dealer helps a lot with that. But with less integration will come a steeper learning curve and some compromises.

[sbernthal]

Are you looking to shoot at ISO above 200?
If this is a significant part of your work, then you should get a CMOS.
If you're OK staying at 200 and below, then you can get a better deal with CCD.

Why are you not considering Credo?
Credo and IQ and very similar, and Credo is much cheaper.
A Credo 40 would be much better than any P series back, and you can get a full kit with body and lens for $14k new.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Just to mention, you can buy a Hasselblad H5D40 for 9995 $US here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/893188-REG/Hasselblad_H5D_40_DSLR_Camera.html

That is a small sensor CCD system, of course.

A benefit of Mamiya or Pentax 645 based systems is that there are a lot of lenses around at affordable prices.

These two postings on Jim Kasson's blog may be worth reading:

http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20141207
http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20141208

Personally, my plan was to go with the Hasselblad 555/ELD and P45+, and add a Hartblei HCam later on. I would combine that Hartblei HCam with Canon T&S lenses and a Mirex T&S adapter, so I could use my Hasselblad lenses with tilt and shift.

But, I decided to buy 40 mm Distagon and a Flexbody along that route. So I am not that much 'gungh ho' for the Hartbeli HCam any longer.

What I really have found is that:

• The Hasselblad 555/ELD P45+ is sort of OK
• Focusing accuracy is a major issue. Missing live view sourly!
• I am not sure T&S work for me. A modern back with good live view may be different.

The thing below may be an interesting option:

Best regards
Erik

[bcooter]

I'm looking to move up to medium format digital for landscape.
The introduction of the Pentax 645Z has just made it affordable for me.

You answered your own question from the start.

In regards to repairs, unless it's Canon or Nikon, any major repair is going to fly off somewhere regardless of the brand and I've heard nobody complain about the 645d so I assume the Z is even better in build quality.

Personally, I don't think you'll see much difference in image quality from a Nikon D800 to the Pentax as long as you have good glass, but I'm sure that response will bring up a variety of charts and diagrams to prove me wrong.

The thing I'm kind of missing is the "why".   If you shoot landscapes, I assume that's a slower process on a tripod, so if you like the Pentax why not save a bunch a get the D?  

I'd bet dollars to donuts the file quality is equal, unless you shoot in low light.

But remember something, great photography has very little to do with the camera, regardless of what a camera forum says.


IMO

BC

[Ken R]

You answered your own question from the start.

In regards to repairs, unless it's Canon or Nikon, any major repair is going to fly off somewhere regardless of the brand and I've heard nobody complain about the 645d so I assume the Z is even better in build quality.

Personally, I don't think you'll see much difference in image quality from a Nikon D800 to the Pentax as long as you have good glass, but I'm sure that response will bring up a variety of charts and diagrams to prove me wrong.

The thing I'm kind of missing is the "why".   If you shoot landscapes, I assume that's a slower process on a tripod, so if you like the Pentax why not save a bunch a get the D?  

I'd bet dollars to donuts the file quality is equal, unless you shoot in low light.

But remember something, great photography has very little to do with the camera, regardless of what a camera forum says.


IMO

BC

I had the 645D and while the image quality was good, the D800E I tested alongside it had more dynamic range and of course much cleaner high iso and long exposure image quality. Resolution wise they were just about equal and dependent on the lens use in which case the Nikon offered a much larger range of options. In landscape photography dynamic range and resolution are king. Of course if one likes the look of the file and working with the camera that is taken into consideration as well. I really did not liked the way the 645D handled the highlights so off it went.

I still question how much of an advantage the 645z has over a D810 since there are some stellar lenses available for the Nikon and the Pentax lenses, while very good, are not known to be superb.

I got the PhaseOne IQ160 (and tech cam)nfor Landscape work since it really offered a resolution advantage (with Rodenstock lenses) over any camera I have used. Love the way it handles the highlights. It also turns out I love the way it renders skintones with strobes so I use it for people work with a Hasselblad H1. Works great tethered also. For me it turned out to be a much more versatile and enjoyable tool to work with than I tough it would be.

All that said, Why do you want MFDigital? What are you looking for? 

[eronald]

Erik,

 You sound like a good candidate to sell the OP a P45+ at a discount and get a Hasselblad CMOS back with livevew.

Edmund

Hi,

Just to mention, you can buy a Hasselblad H5D40 for 9995 $US here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/893188-REG/Hasselblad_H5D_40_DSLR_Camera.html

That is a small sensor CCD system, of course.

A benefit of Mamiya or Pentax 645 based systems is that there are a lot of lenses around at affordable prices.

These two postings on Jim Kasson's blog may be worth reading:

http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20141207
http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20141208

Personally, my plan was to go with the Hasselblad 555/ELD and P45+, and add a Hartblei HCam later on. I would combine that Hartblei HCam with Canon T&S lenses and a Mirex T&S adapter, so I could use my Hasselblad lenses with tilt and shift.

But, I decided to buy 40 mm Distagon and a Flexbody along that route. So I am not that much 'gungh ho' for the Hartbeli HCam any longer.

What I really have found is that:

• The Hasselblad 555/ELD P45+ is sort of OK
• Focusing accuracy is a major issue. Missing live view sourly!
• I am not sure T&S work for me. A modern back with good live view may be different.

The thing below may be an interesting option:

Best regards
Erik

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

This link may be interesting for you: http://blog.mingthein.com/2014/06/29/review-the-pentax-645z-part-ii-medium-format-shootout/

The VFC 39 uses the same CCD as the P45+, but it is possible that Phase One makes better use of it.

Best regards
Erik

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Edmund,

I have considered it, but decided not to for a couple of reasons, one of those reasons being the crop factor. Honestly I was spending a bit to much on the Hasselblad P45+ combo, so spending brakes are now "on".

Regarding, live view is something I really appreciate, makes for easy and accurate focusing. It of course needs to be magnified and the magnified part needs to be movable.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

 You sound like a good candidate to sell the OP a P45+ at a discount and get a Hasselblad CMOS back with livevew.

Edmund

[ondebanks]

The 645D uses same generation Kodak CCD as the P45+.

Erik, the 645D 6 micron sensor is one generation newer than the P45+ 6.8 micron sensor. The other main difference is that the 645D sensor has microlenses for better high ISO, while the P45+ does not.

Otherwise, I agree with your other comments on the pros/cons.

Ray

[ondebanks]

I'm looking to move up to medium format digital for landscape.
The introduction of the Pentax 645Z has just made it affordable for me.
A kit with the 55mm lens is coming in at around 12K here in Australia, I think I will be able to manage that price.
Recently I have been looking at the second hand sites and seeing some good value Phase One kits for sale now for not a lot more than the new Pentax, making me think perhaps I can realistically afford to go a fraction further cost wise and get a Phase One. ... Which I would LOVE... but around 15K would be my limit .... so that is my ceiling.

The only thing which gives me pause on the Pentax system, whether 645D or 645Z, is the lens range and quality.
Mamiya/Phase One has an edge on both aspects, especially with some of the manual focus Mamiya 645 glass which can be found at tremendous bargain prices.

So here's an option that no-one has suggested yet. If you like the 645D/645Z sensor size but doubt the lenses...get a used Leica S2, which fits your budget. Essentially the same Kodak 6 micron sensor as the 645D, but in a 3:2 aspect ratio. What the Leica does is key you into the biggest range of medium format glass of any medium format camera. Leica's own lenses are insanely good but also insanely expensive...but thanks to the really short flange distance, there are adapters to all sort of other system's lenses: Mamiya 645, Contax 645, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Pentax 67. You could get the used S2 body, start with cheap-but-excellent glass from these systems, and gradually upgrade to the native Leica lenses where you feel you need any extra quality.

Ray

[Chris Livsey]

But remember something, great photography has very little to do with the camera, regardless of what a camera forum says.


IMO

BC

Or lenses, but maybe a bit more than little for lenses?

[Joe Towner]

It's really a straight forward discussion given the info as to what you're shooting and the two options, and pricing we speak of may encourage a holiday trip:

Weather sealing including lenses and ISO 400 and higher - Pentax
Adaptability, long exposures, leveraging your existing Horseman for even bigger images - Phase

As always, try to get different systems into your hands before purchase, everyone has a different workflow, and what may work for me won't always work for someone else.  If you haven't worked with CaptureOne, grab the demo and watch their webinars and such - it's pretty powerful, and may factor in to your decision.

[eronald]

It's really a straight forward discussion given the info as to what you're shooting and the two options, and pricing we speak of may encourage a holiday trip:

Weather sealing including lenses and ISO 400 and higher - Pentax
Adaptability, long exposures, leveraging your existing Horseman for even bigger images - Phase

As always, try to get different systems into your hands before purchase, everyone has a different workflow, and what may work for me won't always work for someone else.  If you haven't worked with CaptureOne, grab the demo and watch their webinars and such - it's pretty powerful, and may factor in to your decision.

I agree:
- Need a modern SLR body, good AF, high ISO, fast shooting rate (3fps), liveview focusing ====> 645Z
- Need bulletproof tethering, tech camera ability, superlong exposures =======> P45+.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

People shouldn't spend their money only to advance a bit on what they are already doing... It doesn't advance their photography... Investing into doing more (advanced) things makes sense... Investing in having trivial improvement in "quality" (whatever that means) but still doing the same, makes little sense... Just my 2 Cts...

[tsjanik]

The only thing which gives me pause on the Pentax system, whether 645D or 645Z, is the lens range and quality.
Mamiya/Phase One has an edge on both aspects, especially with some of the manual focus Mamiya 645 glass which can be found at tremendous bargain prices.................................................

Ray

So Ray I'm thinking critically and demanding evidence to support your statement  .  I will also point out that a number of superbly built manual focus lenses are available for the Pentax, e.g. the 150mm A f/3.5.  Sharp, compact and about $150.  As to the range: 25mm to 600mm, at least 20 lenses and most available as AF or manual.   As to the comparative quality, the only direct comparison to a Mamiya lens I'm aware of is here:

http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/pentax645_fa35mm.html

Tom

[ondebanks]

So Ray I'm thinking critically and demanding evidence to support your statement  .  

Excellent!

I will also point out that a number of superbly built manual focus lenses are available for the Pentax, e.g. the 150mm A f/3.5.  Sharp, compact and about $150.  As to the range: 25mm to 600mm, at least 20 lenses and most available as AF or manual.   As to the comparative quality, the only direct comparison to a Mamiya lens I'm aware of is here:

http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/pentax645_fa35mm.html

Tom

I'll start with the range, as that is easier to address. The Pentax 645 range has no counterpart to the following Mamiya/Phase One 645 lenses:

* Fisheye
* Shift
* Tilt/Shift
* Soft focus
* Compact mirror long-tele
* AF leaf-shutter lenses (choice of 8 )
* Really fast standard (f1.9 vs f2.8 )
* Really fast APO teles (choice of 3: 200/2.8, 300/2.8, 500/4.5)
* 500mm teles (choice of 3! f/8 mirror, f/5.6, f/4.5) (the Pentax 150-300mm zoom set to 250mm + a 2x TC hits 500mm, but at f/11)

Against that, the Mamiya/Phase One has no counterpart to the following Pentax lenses:

* 25mm rectilinear ultrawideangle (the 24mm Mamiya goes wider but it must be de-fished)
* 400mm and 600mm teles (Mamiya can only get there with 200mm or 300mm + 2x TC)
* 1.4x TC
* Wideangle zooms (choice of 2)
* Longer tele zoom (150-300; Mamiya's longest is 105-210)

Overall, number of different prime focal lengths [not prime lenses, as there are often 2 or 3 lenses with the same focal length]: Mamiya 17, Pentax 13

Both systems are large, but I think any neutral observer would give the "win" to Mamiya/Phase One.

As for non-native lenses, both systems have plenty of adapter options in common - Pentax 67, Hasselblad V, Pentacon Six/Kiev/Exakta 66, Bronica GS1, Leica Visoflex M39  
- but Mamiya alone has a few more: Mamiya RB/RZ, Bronica SQ, Kiev 88.


Quality is of course generally more subjective.

I don't believe that modern Pentax 645 digital designs are anything other than superlative.

But I remember in my film days, being a bit disappointed by Pentax 645 images shared by fellow astrophotographers. We tend to shoot wide open, you see, and aberrations just seemed worse than what I was getting with my Mamiya 645 lenses.

It's also telling, I think, that quality-obsessed Leica have produced adapters from their S2 body to many leading medium format system lenses...first came the Mamiya 645, Hasselblad V, and Pentax 67...then the Hasselblad H...then the Contax 645 [the latter two required reverse engineering the electronic actuators]...but not the Pentax 645. Maybe it's coming.

Ray