Problems with Exhibition Matte Canvas

[robcoomer]

I'm at the end of my rope with Epson at the moment. Is anyone out there successfully printing, sealing, and stretching newer Epson Exhibition Matte Canvas?

I've been using it for many years without any issues, first on a 7600 & 9600 and then on a 9900, but now I seem to have problems with it because of something they have done in the manufacturing / coatings.

When printing heavy coverage, such as a black border on a gallery wrap, the ink and coating will come off, whether it has been sealed or not. Once the "bad" canvas has been printed, I can run my thumbnail along the black area and the ink with just flake off under light pressure. With the older canvas, it would "gloss up" but not come off. Even once it's sealed, when I grab it with a pair of stretching pliers and pull, the ink, the canvas coating, and the UV sealant will peel up where I grabbed it. I can then run my finger over it and everything just comes off in little bits and pieces. When the roll is first open, it has a heavy solvent smell, when cut with scissors, it "snows" from all of the flaking. It also clogs the printer, forcing many cleaning cycles.

For my own prints, I'm currently running the canvas on an Epson 9900 with Epson inks, letting it dry for at least 24 hours (up to a week) and then sealing it with Clear Shield, and again allowing it to dry for at least 24 hours before stretching.

I have a painter that I print for, who stretches his canvas unsealed and then seals it with a brush. We have never had a problem until last year when I bought 12 rolls during one of their rebate sales. 6 of them had the flaking problem and was replaced by Epson, though they said they didn't know of any problem. I'm now having the same problem with some of the replacement rolls.

I guess I need to find a quality canvas that I can run with my current media settings to match all the years of color correction I have done to use this canvas. Maybe Premier Art? Evidently Epson has no quality control or just doesn't care. . .

[Landscapes]

This seems very odd.  I have never had a problem with the Epson in terms of flaking.  This post caught my eye because I was trying to use up old canvas and I found an old roll of a Canon canvas.  I sprayed 3 coats on a small sample as I usually do, and when I did the fold over test, I couldn't believe how much it cracked!  Its like the gesso on top of the canvas was seperating from the fibres of the material.... it was so brittle!  The coating therefore didn't matter (timeless).  The coating was sticking to the ink, and the ink I guess was stick to the gesso (this is what it would be called for a painting hence I'm using the same term), but the gesso (the stuff they put on the canvas to make it able to receive the ink) wasn't sticking to the cotton fibres.  I can therefore only finish this canvas if I would mount the canvas to a board and pop it into a frame... but no way could it be stretched.

So I know what you're talking about, I just haven't ever seen it with the Epson canvas.  There probably isn't much you can do if the gesso doesn't stick to the material.  No amount of top coat will help.  Its like an avalanche.  All the snow on top comes crashing down because a weak layer underneath just can't hold on.  Once the weakest layer gives way, whatever is on top comes crashing down.  Here, that layer of gesso/ink receptive coating just cannot hold onto the material, so putting more stuff on top (the spay on coating) just wont help.

[Jartisan]

I feel your pain, the last good canvases I got out were mid-December and I have several orders trying to fill.
Epson 11880 with Exhibition Canvas Matt. Only seen problem in 60", 44" and 36". 24" seems fine for me.
Yes I just called Epson again and they told me they were 'unaware of any problems' even though I have an open case on this and I see you do as well. Have talked to others in the past month (outside Epson) that are aware of the problem. I hear it is hit or miss on getting a good/bad replacement canvas, but all I get are bad. After wasting lots of canvas, ink, sealer and time to only find the problem, I set off to do some tests and although Epson denies the method i came up with is accurate, it makes sense to me:
run your fingernail gently over an old Epson roll or other brand of canvas. I get little if any debris.
Run your finger nail gently over the newer rolls of Epson canvas - after about 8 inches my fingernail is full of white powder. That just doesn't seem right to me.
Ordered in LexJex Fredix Sunset Crystal - they did custom profile for me and really trying to get my business. Just not getting details in shadows, and little harsh in lighter areas. Ultra Smooth as media setting.
Premier Art - Greg is great and love the Eco sealer, but their canvas has no profiles for 11880 or hardly any other printer any is using. Still waiting? Been profiling with my Color Munki and Optimizing with my images, but still not getting the great color as with Epson end-to-end, and little dark in the shadow areas as well - although color there is better. Breathing Color Lyve is just too washed out so far - Perceptual & Relative Colormetric).
I hope this helps if nothing else to see you're not alone. It is so hard get straight answers..

[Paul2660]

I would consider moving to either Breathing color (Chromata White or Lyve) or Lexjet (sunset matte)

Epson, does not make any paper or canvas, they have no mill.  They will change out a company that makes a canvas or paper yearly.  Their Exhibition Canvas lineup is a great example, as it's had at least 3 different companies that have "manufactured" it under the Epson name.  I don't know who is making it now.

Lyve from Breathing color, will both print with no problems, and it will not flake off.  It will take any coating, eco, timeless, clearstar, or Glamour II.  It has a very bright white point and thus produces an excellent DMAX. 
Chromata White is older, has less of a bright white color, but is also an excellent canvas.

Both of these canvases have an excellent hand to stretch, no problems with flaking off or chipping.  I have used them for years.  Some fine the weave of the BC canvas extreme, I personally find it to be very good.  Lyve will allow very some excellent fine details also. 
Breathing Color has stock profiles, I believe they have them for the 11880, if not the profiles for the 9880 will work as it's the same ink set, (11880 just allows no switching on blacks)

The Lexjet Sunset line has changed a few times, (Lexjet has no mill either unless they purchased one late last year), and I have heard many of their products now are made in China.  I have not used the Sunset line for about 1 1/2 years, but it was very good.

Paul

[TSJ1927]

I seriously doubt any of the mentioned paper/canvas sellers or suppliers have their "own" Mill.  Paper mills are a big deal.  They may have exclusive agreements with paper milling companies. Same goes for coatings.  Also companies change suppliers of canvas, paper stocks and coaters without public notification.  [Read new and improved]

[Paul2660]

Breathing Color owns their own mill.  Mill is in CA,  business offices are in Austin TX.

Paul

[BillHorne]

I was successfully printing on Epson satin canvas for quite a few years, then ran into serious trouble with the new "Exhibition Canvas Satin" when it replaced the previous product. Using the Epson 4000 Pro Premium Luster ICC profile helped prevent the black smearing issue. However, this canvas is extremely difficult to stretch. IMO it's way too stiff.

I'm using professional artist's canvas stretching pliers and a staple gun, which have worked just fine for years. Pulling as hard as I physically can, even with stabilizing clamps, does not eliminate wows and creases, especially on panoramic formats like 9x30 or 17x48. I can't sell these prints looking this way, and it's very frustrating. So whatever Epson says, you are not imagining these issues.

[dalenster]

Has anyone found an alternative to the Exhibition canvas satin ?  I’m having problems with this substrate.  I don’t remember having issues with this four years ago, it smears significantly and seems more sensitive.  I’ve wasted so much ink and paper trying to figure it out. According to Epson, you don’t need to coat this paper.  I’ve got it work somewhat by using the luster photo profile but at the expense of some dmax , but this is still not ideal.

[Garnick]

I've been using Breathing Color Chromata White Matte canvas for at least 10 years with the Epson SP-9900 and now the SC-P7000.  In all that time I experienced only one small issue about 5 years ago that seems somewhat like what the OP describes, except it didn't appear until the framer was stretching the canvas.  She let me know immediately and I picked it up and tried to determine what had happened.  I also got in touch with my customer and asked her to bring in the last couple of canvases I had printed for her.  There were no signs of an issue with them so I ran some tests on the "problem" roll and applied the coating as usual.  After a couple of days I did the fold test and the problem showed again.  I took some macro shots of the issue and sent them to Breathing Color along with the pertinent information.  They got in touch with me within a few hours and let me know there was a new roll of canvas waiting for me at the local distributor.  Since that was the only roll I had of that batch number I was confident that another batch would be problem-free as usual.  Since that incident I have never encountered any such issue with BC Canvas and they thanked me for being in touch to let them know about the issue.  I apply Eco Print Shield coating.  The first two coats Satin and the last coat a 50/50 mix of Satin and Gloss.

Gary     

[mearussi]

Has anyone found an alternative to the Exhibition canvas satin ?  I’m having problems with this substrate.  I don’t remember having issues with this four years ago, it smears significantly and seems more sensitive.  I’ve wasted so much ink and paper trying to figure it out. According to Epson, you don’t need to coat this paper.  I’ve got it work somewhat by using the luster photo profile but at the expense of some dmax , but this is still not ideal.

Depends on what you like. My favorite canvas is Canson Museum ProCanvas luster (they also make a matte version). It has excellent color and the smoothest finish of any canvas I've tested. It is a 100% cotton canvas that is very pliable and easy to stretch.

[Paul_Roark]

Two years ago I did an entire show using canvas for my black and white prints.  (I use and recommend a high carbon content printing for B&W and called my show "Carbon on Canvas," but that is beside the point.)  My initial feeling was that the canvas was useful in hiding a lack of fine detail in very large prints.  That may still be photo canvas's most useful purpose.  How, after the fact and after seeing all the problems with canvas, my feeling is that photographers should not try to imitate painters.  Canvas is a painting substrate.  If the image file is a bit weak on detail when enlarged, use Topaz's AI Sharpen or AI Gigapixel to cure that problem.  Frankly when I see a "gallery wrap" photo, it just scream "Costco" to me.  Not good.  Not what we ought to be aspiring to.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Paul2660]

Still would consider Breathing color, Chromata White or Lyve. Both are Matte, both show very good finer details.

As for Printer on paper and painter on canvas, I would tend to disagree. 

I well done canvas print on a modern inkjet can hold up to some very fine details and also make a large print.  I have never had any problems.  I don't do B&W and defer to Paul's expertise on that style of print

What I have found on Larger color prints on paper:

1.  Very hard to work with without damage, v crease, folds etc.  Next to impossible to ship to a customer
2.  Any print much larger than a 33" wide will take you into over sized everything, glass, mats etc.
3.  A good large print should most time be dry mounted, again, adds to both cost and time and finding someone with 4 x 8 drymount press and in a clean environment
4.  Weight of a larger framed print with glass can be considerable, unlike the same print on canvas. 
5.  Modern glossy canvas can come very close to paper.  I realize that there are other issues like brighteners etc.  But I have prints now hanging over 10 years, and fading and or cracking is nominal.


I have done several huge prints for various hospitals and office buildings where the viewing public can approach closely.  No problems with finer details.  Yes paper will always display them better, but I sure would not shy away from a canvas print.  Also if that is what the customer wants, I for one tend to let the customer have what they want. 

The move now is away from canvas to metal and or acrylic face mounting.  Both of which I can't offer due to costs.  I have used lab for a few larger prints on metal, (where I believe the print is on paper but then laminated to the metal) and they look very nice.  However the cost is very high.  Face mounting to either glass or acrylic is a very special process, requiring a clean room type environment and even more expensive.  Wonderful look however.

For me, canvas is still a great alternative, one I can fully control, and still doesn't' scream Costco. 

Paul C

[I.T. Supplies]

Breathing Color owns their own mill.  Mill is in CA,  business offices are in Austin TX.

Paul

Their mill actually is BC's parent company and both are in TX.  They used to be in CA until the tax issues and moved everything to TX.

We sell lots of Epson's Matte canvas and don't have many issues with the product or stretching.  We also test stretch for our understanding and for customers demoing with no issues either.  Doesn't mean they don't have problems at all and it's hard to know if a roll (or batch) will have issues until it's being used. 

We've heard many issues with Epson's customer service not knowing much about their products or certain issues.  Since we deal with Epson and the distributors that stock their products for us to sell, we forward the batch/lot # to the warehouse to have inspected through the appropriate Epson rep.  Premier is another good option and has many types available, and there are other brands of canvas that we carry as well.  Canson is good, but may be slightly hard to get at times since they are waiting for the shipment to come from overseas where their mill is.

If the protection coating isn't sticking properly, it's usually the inkjet coating not being properly applied and best option for getting a replacement is make sure you provide the lot# of those rolls so it doesn't get shipped again.

We are happy to help customers on other options or getting this issue resolved (if possible).

IT Supplies

[Paul2660]

My previous point, is that I don't believe Epson, makes any of their paper/canvas products.  Unless in the past year Epson purchased a Mill, which might have occurred.  I do know that calling their tech support on a paper issues tends to lead to a rabbit hole and you never get resolution.  Calling their tech support on a printer problem is much different and support is usually excellent.   Epson color profiles for all of their paper products tend to be excellent at least for my use. 

Breathing color is just one company that I know has a mill and thus has control over the QA of their product.  But you can easily reach out them with an issue.  They are quick to respond, and always are positive and upbeat.  I only use them for canvas, but they have always worked closely with my issues over the years. I am sure BC also produces for other companies, maybe even Epson since the have to cost justify the cost of a mill.

Paul C
 

[I.T. Supplies]

There are only a few mills in the world and most of the products are made through Mitsubishi's mill.  Canson has their own and I'm not sure on the other (aside from Permalite- BC's parent company), but Epson gets their "canvas" from Permalite and just changes the specs to make it their product.  BC's mill is called Permalite.

Don't believe Epson gets from any other location just because of specific pricing rules and most of their inventory comes from overseas.  If you notice some products like Epson Canvas from a few years ago was on many months back order and it was waiting to come in, Epson America couldn't provide proper updates as it was being produced at Permalite (CA at the time) and the distributors in the US were expecting their inventory to ship to customers.  Permalite is pretty closed on who it deals with and when they were moving to TX, they were not producing media, but Epson's product was available and still going to warehouses around the country.

Epson's support has been about the same for many years and we've heard a lot of complaints about it (which is sad for a huge printing company).  You may get a lucky person to speak to that is helpful though.  That's why we have good connections with the manufacturer and will look into it right away.  We try to make sure there really isn't something wrong with a product (if we can) and how to resolve the matter.

If you've had luck with another brand, great!

[604Canvas]

Same problem as robcoomer (above).

Epson matte 44" rolls. Flaking once I strech it. I've tried 8 different rolls and all have the same outcome. Extremely frustrating. My guess is it's the coating. The ink lands well on the Canvas and when you inspect the print it looks great, the problem happens when you strech it. And a light once over with a finger lifts several flakes.

[ShirleyB]

I had a problem with cotton seeds ruining my pics.  I called Epson gave them the batch # (it's on the inside of the roll) and I had a replacement roll the next day.  They know ehich batches are bad, they just don't know who bought them. I couldn't find a number to call so I called a number on the online store and they transferred me to the right place.