simply elegant matte canvas vs lyve

[mstevensphoto]

Hey folks,
   I print tons of Lyve and generally love it. I am having more and more quality issues with seeds and other defects. Simply Elegant is a lot less expensive and ships to me free from a number of places (compared to the $40 BC charges me for shipping). Ultimately these canvases are all for sale and the cost is covered in the purchase price. I'm curious if anyone has made the comparison and what your decision was and why?

[Landscapes]

Just went through the exact same thing.  I was using Epson Exhibition Canvas and loved it, but the price was a factor, although defects were the bigger problem.  The defects I had were runs in the coating and of course the seeds.

I ordered a roll of both the Everyday Matte and also Simply Elegant Matte Canvas.  The Everyday is 100% poly, so I figured with no cotton, there wouldn't be seeds.  The surface is absolutely perfect, almost too perfect in that there is no randomness.  The only issue is that it is quite thin/light.  Once stretched, nobody could tell, but if you deliver the canvas to a customer as a roll, it won't have the same weight/sturdiness.  It also doesn't seem to have the stretch factor that the Epson canvas has, but it still stretched fine.  On the plus side, the everyday canvas is thin so the corners can be neat.  There was zero flaking once coated, and the corners were perfect in terms of no cracking.  Other than the weight, I love it.  It comes in a 75 foot roll, so you're not stuck with a few feet on every roll that you can't use, which is common on the 40 foot rolls, the price is therefore much cheaper per foot, and the lack of defects makes it a winner.

The heavier canvas, the Simply Elegant Matte, this compares well to the Epson.  Its a little softer, but still has the thickness and weight.  I think it has less imperfections, but this might perhaps vary with the rolls given that it too is a cotton/poly blend.  It comes in at maybe 20% or so cheaper and there is hardly any difference between the more expensive Epson.  So really.. there is no point in sticking with Epson for canvas.  I haven't seen any runs in the coating yet, but I'm only on my first roll.

If they made the everyday canvas thicker/heavier, but still 100% poly, this might be quite the product.  One drawback is I think being able to shrink the cotton canvas once stretched with a bit of water in the back to take up saginess or work out a dent, which you cannot do I think with the 100% poly canvas since the polyester fibers won't shrink I imagine (haven't had to try yet though).  But if I am throwing away less canvas, this is the biggest factor.  When printing on canvas, there is simply too much wasted because of defects and its too expensive to waste, unlike paper which is quite a bit cheaper.

[mstevensphoto]

thanks for the thoughtful reply. do you ever mount your canvas to gator? I'm curious how the thinner one would mount and if the thinner media would be more prone to letting glue seep through or showing minute defects that can be hidden with the thicker canvas.

[Landscapes]

I haven't tried mounting it but I doubt it wouldn't work.  At 16 mil, its still pretty thick.  If I was mounting, I would absolutely go with it.  The only drawback is the thickness if you will be delivering just the roll to the customer as it won't have that same feel of "substance".  But if I was going to mount it, I'd be getting a surface that is much less prone to imperfections at half the price and less wastage of material both because of the perfect surface but also because it comes in a 75 foot roll versus 40 feet.  If you consider that each roll might leave you with about 2 or 3 feet on the end that you can't use because you print long panoramas, then you only have to waste this half the time given that the roll is almost twice as long.

The only other thing that I might worry about is light coming through.  If a canvas was for some reason to be propped up on a table with light being able to shine in through the back, this might be a problem given the thinner media.  But I imagine most people hang the canvas on wall and hence light is going to come through the back.  If need be, you could always staple on some sort of dust barrier which is what you sometimes see... or even just the heavy craft paper like what you would get on the back of a framed print.

The texture/weave does look somewhat "cheap" on first inspection... perhaps something like what you see from the canvases at Ikea (this might be due to the fact that the surface is so perfect and uniform), but if you have an image worth printing, I doubt this will be a problem.  Selling photography these days for me just comes down to selling paper and ink at a markup.  It just isn't so much about the art anymore, but an excuse to sell ink and paper.  So if I have to do too many reprints because of all the imperfections with canvas, this really affects the bottom line.

[Landscapes]

I should also say that if your intention is to mount... do what bill t. does on here and just print on some sort of textured paper that you then spray coat.  The paper is cheaper still, absolutely perfect from an imperfection standpoint, and you'll likely also have better dmax I think.

[nydigitalguy]

Several things determine the look and stretch-ability of canvas:

(1) Polyester content - Simply Elegant I believe is 100 % polyester, Lyve is 65% Poly, 35% cotton.) The advantage of a 100% polyester is that once it is stretched completely, and correctly it will not sag.  Whereas, Lyve or any canvas has he potential to sag depending on the environment in which the stretched canvas is hung (humidity or dryness of the room).
(2) Opacity - Cotton is woven into the base canvas to provide more opacity and to give it a natural look.
(3) Weave - most 65/35 canvases are a 2 over 1, Oxford weave.  This weave provides a more traditional look and surface after the canvas is printed and coated.  Most 100% polyester canvas  is a 1 over 1 weave; which accounts for the ultra uniform surface after printing and coating.
(4) White point - this is the same factor that often determines the look of papers. 
(5) Weight - AKA thickness.  The truth is that a canvas over 21 or 22 mils thick is more difficult to stretch than a 17 mil canvas. My personal preference is 19 to 21 mils. Weight and thickness also have a bearing on opacity.
(6) Ink receptive coating - this coating determines the DMax of the final print and the vibrancy of the printed color.  The quality of your printer/paper profile will affect the actual quality of you print on any canvas more than the canvas itself- unless the canvas is of real low quality.  Note:  We purchased 7 different matte canvases to test the differences.  Using high quality profiles to print the same image and color charts on all 7 canvases, same coating on all 7 canvases . . .   the results were almost indistinguishable in both color and DMax.  Where several of the canvases did fall down was a slight difference in rendering of detail. This lack of 'finished quality' difference is a testament to how far canvas manufacturers suppliers have come on the quality scale.  I does not pay to over pay for canvas these days.

As far as 100% polyester canvas is concerned it usually has a higher white point and is 1 over or one weave; and typically anywhere from 8 mills thick up to 15 mils thick.  They all stretch well, but opacity is an issue for some users.

When it comes to seeds and imperfections in canvas that is function of the base canvas the manufacturer purchases. If you are paying a premium price for a canvas, you should expect a very clean canvas absent of seeds and other crap.  Because polyester is 100% man made, you will see a near perfectly uniform surface.

[ddolde]

You can buy Lyve on Ebay from Adorama and get free shipping.  Don't buy directly from Breathing Color or you will pay shipping.

[dgberg]

Depending on where you live shipping from Ca. is expensive.

[PeterAit]

You can buy Lyve on Ebay from Adorama and get free shipping.  Don't buy directly from Breathing Color or you will pay shipping.

It's good to know about Lyve and Adorama. But be aware that Breathing Color offers some nice discounts on quantity purchases.

[msongs]

"I ordered a roll of both the Everyday Matte and also Simply Elegant Matte Canvas"? If I do a search I only come up with simply elegant matte and there does not seem to be anything called everyday matte

also shipping is a big deal here in Hawaii as the suppliers seem to be more interested in making money for UPS than saving money for us, the customer.
I am charge $80 for one roll of canvas UPS shipping when the post office would do it for under $30 and get here faster. and I have NEVER ever had a shipped item lost by the post office in decades.  suppliers refuse to quit using UPS.