Questions for debating Asus, Dell, or NEC monitor

[darlingm]

(Each monitor model is linked to its specs)

My Asus PA246Q (was $500, 98% AdobeRGB, deltaE <=5 out of box) just died.

As replacements, I'm considering:
* Asus PA249Q 24" ($459, 99% AdobeRGB, deltaE <= 3 out of box) -- not that I care about out of the box deltaE, just including because it and the Dells are at least far above typical consumer monitors
* Dell U2413 24" ($450, 99% AdobeRGB, deltaE <= 2 out of box)
* Dell U2713H 27" ($799, 99% AdobeRGB, deltaE <= 2 out of box)
* NEC PA272W-BK and SpectraView II stand-alone 27" ($1088 ($999+$89), 99.3% AdobeRGB)
* NEC PA272W-BK-SV 27" ($1149, 99.3% AdobeRGB)

Question 1 - I have an X-Rite i1 Photo Pro 2.  Is there any reason to pay the extra $61 to get their hardware calibrator device, over buying the monitor without it or spectraview, and buying the $89 stand-alone (no hardware) SpectraView digital download from NEC?

Remainder of my questions are geared to me trying to figure out whether to stick with a $450 Asus/Dell, or a $1000+ NEC.  Basically trying to figure out if I'm paying $700 extra just for SpectraView, or if I get more out of it.

Question 2 - Are the Asus or Dell monitors basically going to be the same (after calibration and profiling) as the NECs, except for no SpectraView software?  They're all 99% AdobeRGB coverage (granted NEC says 99.3%), but I know that doesn't tell the entire story.  Some could have more portions of ProPhotoRGB, or some could be able to be more accurate than others.

Question 3 - Should I have been able to load into the monitor's LUTs on the Asus PA246Q?  I believe i1Profiler, argyll, and basICColor display 5 had that option grayed out, even though it is advertised as having an internal 12-bit LUT.

Question 4 - Will i1Profiler, argyll, or basICColor display 5 be able to load into the monitor's LUTs on the Asus PA249Q, or the Dell U2413 or U2713H?

Question 5 - Will i1Profiler, argyll, or basICColor display 5 be able to hardware calibrate the Asus PA249Q, or the Dell U2413 or U2713H?  (Meaning, during calibration, adjust the monitor's controls by the profiling software rather than having the user touch the physical controls.)

Question 6 - Is NEC SpectraView the only software that embed the monitor control settings in the ICC profile (or in associated SpectraView settings if not technically part of the ICC profile) so you can at the click of a button switch between modes that have different brightnesses, white points, etc?

[D Fosse]

1. You can buy the Spectraview II software separately, $99, and you should be good to go as long as you have a PA.
2. No. This isn't about gamut, it's about panel uniformity (Dells can be horrible), shadow and highlight separation, even gradations over the entire tonal range. And the Spectraview software lets you control calibration parameters with much higher precision.
3. i1 Profiler will try, but if it fails (as it likely will because these protocols are far from standardized), it won't tell you. It just goes to the video card and does it there.
4. Ditto. Dell has released its own software for these models, but I think it's locked to the i1 Display Pro sensor.
5. That's the same question.
6. This isn't part of the profile. The profile is just a description of the monitor in its current (calibrated or non-calibrated) state. But with video card calibration, the profile is a convenient place to store the video LUT. With hardware calibration it's stored in the monitor itself.

Calibration and profiling are two different things, but often confused because of this LUT storage inside the profile.

Only Spectraview and Eizo Colornavigator lets you switch easily between different calibration targets (and load the corresponding icc profile at system level).

BTW, here's what Dell considers "within specification" and non-replaceable. Just beware:

[darlingm]

1. OK, so no advantage to having NEC's hardware device over the i1 Photo Pro 2.
2. Wow, that Dell pic is awful.  Never had that problem with the Asus I had.  Thanks for posting that - remember reading your previous thread on this, but had forgotten about it.
4&5.  My 5 was geared toward setting the monitor control's brightness, contrast, white point, r/g/b/etc gain values.  Thought that was set independently of the LUTs.

If I go NEC, would I be able to use argyll or basICColor display 5 to create better profiles, and use those through SpectraView?  Or, am I going to loose functionality.

I ask because I've received much better results using these over i1Profiler, and am wondering if I'm locked out of using those if I want all the SpectraView functionality.  But, of course, perhaps SpectraView would perform as well as those.

[D Fosse]

If you go NEC, Spectraview is the only way to go. It will calibrate the unit and load the data into the 14-bit monitor LUT, and then it will create a correspondig icc profile for each specific target. There's no reason to believe Argyll or BasICColor will make any better profiles - although it is possible to have such a "hybrid" configuration if you set Argyll to "profile only/no calibration".

Your i1 Pro will be supported in Spectraview, so you don't need the full package - just the software.

Yeah, the Dell pic is truly awful. I still don't know how they're getting away with this. But it explains the specification/price ratio, which is almost ridiculous. On paper, a Dell U2413 is, spec by spec, identical to an Eizo CG246. Something's very wrong with that picture.

[deejjjaaaa]

There's no reason to believe Argyll or BasICColor will make any better profiles

don't you think that proprietary are only in business because they know how to load luts into display hardware

[JRSmit]

Not necessarily. I use nec 271pa and use sv2 did also use basiccolor but no advantage.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

BTW, here's what Dell considers "within specification" and non-replaceable.

Hi,

Just to understand, what are we looking at? If it is an image of the display shot with a camera, which distance was used (presumably the pattern changes with viewing angle)? I assume you feel that the postprocessing of the image gives a comparable representation of what you see by eye as well?

Would have been nice to have another display shot exactly the same way as comparison, to eliminate some processing induced issues, although I'd be surprised if the LED emissions were a perfect match to the camera CFA and profile.

Cheers,
Bart

[D Fosse]

Just to understand, what are we looking at?

I took that photograph from the Dell support forum http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/peripherals/f/3529/t/19526218 because it was a particularly good illustration of the issue.

And trust me, I know first-hand what the issue is. I've had one of these Dells in the house, and this is exactly the visual impression you get when you fill the screen with a neutral color. By their own admission, their quality control consists of measuring a central two inch circle. If that circle reaches 6500K, the unit ships. That's it.

My point is, they have to cut corners to sell at the prices they do. How else can a 27 inch, wide gamut U2713H be cheaper than a 23 inch, standard gamut NEC P232?

[deejjjaaaa]

My point is, they have to cut corners to sell at the prices they do. How else can a 27 inch, wide gamut U2713H be cheaper than a 23 inch, standard gamut NEC P232?

sell 100 times more monitors and may be get sizeable discounts from whoever makes the panels (LG, Samsung,...) plus lesser cost invested in some parts of internal design/hardware/QC of course - but we shall not mix price and cost... I'd also assume Dell is also making a lot lower margins on each monitor ...

[D Fosse]

and may be get sizeable discounts from whoever makes the panels

Yes, and how do they get sizeable discounts? By taking the C and D batches, the throwaways. Dell is known to change vendors and sub-contractors constantly, depending on where the parts are cheapest this week.

Just telling people to watch out. Dell scr*wed me out of 600 bucks once, and this is happening to a lot of people. Just watch out.

[mlewis]

If I go NEC, would I be able to use argyll or basICColor display 5 to create better profiles, and use those through SpectraView?  Or, am I going to loose functionality.

If you get the NEC you should use the Spectraview software as it will know how to fully adjust the monitor.  Argyll will not create better profiles.  BasicColor will also be able to fully adjust the monitor in the same way as Spectraview as the European Spectraview software is just a rebadged version of BasicColor.

You cannot use other software with Spectraview to do the calibration & profiling.  It does it all.

[AFairley]

I took that photograph from the Dell support forum http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/peripherals/f/3529/t/19526218 because it was a particularly good illustration of the issue.

And trust me, I know first-hand what the issue is. I've had one of these Dells in the house, and this is exactly the visual impression you get when you fill the screen with a neutral color. By their own admission, their quality control consists of measuring a central two inch circle. If that circle reaches 6500K, the unit ships. That's it.

My point is, they have to cut corners to sell at the prices they do. How else can a 27 inch, wide gamut U2713H be cheaper than a 23 inch, standard gamut NEC P232?

This is corresponds exactly with my experience with Dells, including going through three U3011s trying to get a reasonably uniform panel (I couldn't).  The color and brightness differences are clearly visible with the naked eye.  Luminance variation across the panel as measured with a Spyder was somewhere between 25 and 30 percent (!!!) if I recall.  Color temp on a monitor calibrated to 5800K in the center ranged from around 5000 to 6500, again from memory. I would expect the new LED panels to be more uniform, but how much more I don't know.

[deejjjaaaa]

Dell is known to change vendors and sub-contractors constantly, depending on where the parts are cheapest this week.

that's not exactly possible in LCD panels area - there are just so many manufacturers left for IPS-like panels and within the announced spec you at best limited to 2, if not 1 for the life of it (monitor)... I mean you are not going to change from LG panel to AHVA from AUO for a give model of high end Dell... even that one is IPS-like and cheaper...

[deejjjaaaa]

I would expect the new LED panels to be more uniform, but how much more I don't know.

some sites do test some uniformity - like TFT central, so you can see - for example http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/dell_up3214q.htm

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[D Fosse]

This is corresponds exactly with my experience with Dells

Thanks for the confirmation. I've brought this up on occasion before, and sometimes I feel like a one-man anti-Dell crusade.

But I was seriously upset when it happened to me. It was my first investment in a supposedly high-end display (a U2410), and I just couldn't believe what I saw. It was actually not $600, but closer to $800 local price at the time. A few current quotes from the Dell site: "Experience stunning color precision", "Remarkable screen quality", "professional color critical work", and it goes on like this. That's what I thought I'd get.

What I got was a very expensive doorstop. Dell's official response and refusal to replace it shocked me. Yes, you bet I was mad.

As it happened I did get my money back from the dealer, they agreed flat out that this was not what you'd expect at that price. But Dell wouldn't touch it, they just returned it as "within specification". So the dealer took the expense on themselves.

And it continues. People get these lemons all the time. So a warning seems only fair.

[Simon Garrett]

That's a pity.  I've a monitor that may need replacing soon, and I was planning on the Dell U2413. 

Anyone got any other recommendations for a 24 inch wide-gamut?  One that holds a reasonably stable calibration, and price in the same ball park. 

[D Fosse]

Actually there aren't all that many options. For wide gamut, you'd have to spend more. The U2413 is the least expensive option on the market. There's the Asus PA249Q, slightly higher price, but I don't have any experience with Asus displays. Although Asus generally has a good reputation.

Next up would be the new Eizo CS240, $826 at B&H, Colornavigator included. This looks like a real bargain and I suspect this may turn out to be a big hit for Eizo.

HP is a dark horse. The Dreamcolor LP2480 used to be the most expensive monitor around (using RGB LED), and widely used in the film industry. How the current Dreamcolors measure up I don't know, but it seems they dropped their ambition level considerably.

If you settle for standard gamut the Eizo EV2436 looks like a winner at $660, EasyPix included. That's a basic calibrator compared to Colornavigator, but reliable and efficient. A step up would be NEC P242 (P, not PA) at $750 minus Spectraview.

Then of course the usual recommendation, NEC PA242. But in fact the Eizo CX241 is about the same price even in the US.

[Simon Garrett]

Thanks, might have to be the Asus.  I don't really want to spend more than about £500 UK price. 

[brntoki]

I of course do not know your needs, but uniformity may be more important than wide gamut. I decided that for me it was and went with a standard gamut Eizo CS-230 with ColorNavigator. It is only 23 inches, but probably within your budget. Something to consider.

[D Fosse]

Insert Quote
Thanks, might have to be the Asus.  I don't really want to spend more than about £500 UK price.  

Make sure there's a return policy, or try it out first.

Personally I'm done with saving money on monitors. I have sorely regretted it every time - yes, even the NEC P232W, which I used for six months before buying the Eizo CX240. That's the first monitor I'm entirely happy with.

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On a different note, the often repeated dogma that Eizo is "too expensive" and NEC "bang for the buck", seems to me to be nothing more than a myth, considering US prices only. Based on the prices listed on B&H, I see no significant price differences between directly comparable models.

Yes, Eizo CG is more expensive than NEC PA. But you can't directly compare them because the CGs have features the PAs don't, like the built-in sensor. This sensor is no toy, having used a CG246 at work for about a year it's clear that the sensor is very high quality and high precision, and probably better than the i1D3.

To directly compare NEC PA, you have to look at Eizo CX. All panel-related technologies are identical in CG and CX. The difference is the sensor, a hood (quite expensive as a separate item), and a number of video-specific special functions/broadcast standards. If you don't need any of this, a CG is a waste of money.

A NEC PA242 is listed at $1049; add SVII software and you're at $1148. An Eizo CX241 lists at $1110; Colornavigator included.

In Europe the situation is different. NEC PA and Eizo CX are still similarly (and much higher) priced - but then NEC offer the "Spectraview Reference" edition, presumably to compete with Eizo CG. The problem is, there's apparently nothing to justify the extra price except a hood and a vague promise that the units are "specially selected".

(EDIT) Of course, Eizo will never win any design contest. The CG/CXs are ugly beasts with the panel deeply set in a massive bezel. The PAs look much better on the desk, I'll give them that. But if a conversation piece/design icon is what you want, Apple is a better choice anyway...