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Author Topic: When is a photograph a 'lie'?  (Read 8784 times)

mezzoduomo

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When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« on: December 02, 2014, 12:26:03 pm »

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/02/hug-photographs-ferguson-protests-lie

Is a photograph 'a lie' if it portrays something other than someone's subjective perspective about what should be presented visually concerning some event?
 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 12:37:14 pm by mezzoduomo »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2014, 12:39:10 pm »

If a lie requires an intent to deceive, this photograph may not qualify.

If a lie means not representing the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, photographs always lie.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 12:56:47 pm by Jim Kasson »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2014, 12:50:49 pm »

The article itself is sickening in its negativism and leftist PC terrorism. Unless it is a Photoshop composite (and it isn't), that photograph doesn't lie. What we choose to see (or not) in it, however, is not the photograph(er)'s responsibility.

Misirlou

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2014, 12:52:17 pm »

I agree with Jim.

Seems to me that The Guardian writer is looking at this from the "Critical Theory" perspective. I don't mean to offend any of you who are believers, but I don't personally entertain those sorts of arguments any longer.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 12:54:32 pm »

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/02/hug-photographs-ferguson-protests-lie

Is a photograph 'a lie' if it portrays something other than someone's subjective perspective about what should be presented visually concerning some event?
 

In order not to be taken in by the text, you need to appreciate the newspaper in which it was published. The Guardian would be viscerally opposed to the decision not to prosecute the policeman involved (whatever the actual facts) and to any idea that there could be such a thing as a good policeman, or that one showing some humanity could possibly be representative. It's a mindset. It's unshakable.

The article is drivel (The Guardian publishes a lot of drivel), but what it criticises isn't so much the photograph as an exaggerated interpretation which some have apparently placed on it, namely that it has a wider significance than an isolated moment.

Jeremy

Jeremy
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Misirlou

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 01:13:02 pm »

...what it criticises isn't so much the photograph as an exaggerated interpretation which some have apparently placed on it, namely that it has a wider significance than an isolated moment.

Jeremy

Which is the most irksome part. As if The Guardian knows more about the significance and meaning of a photograph to its viewers than the viewers do themselves.
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Isaac

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 01:18:24 pm »

… what it criticises isn't so much the photograph as an exaggerated interpretation which some have apparently placed on it, namely that it has a wider significance than an isolated moment.

The column subhead seems straightforward enough -- "It’s absurd that a nation’s new, yet old, encounter with its most destructive division can be summed up by this soppy picture of a tearful hug".

Other paragraphs are no more than bombast -- "The camera is a superb liar. … In the context of the completely unresolved and immensely troubling situation, not just in Ferguson but across the United States, where Ferguson has opened wounds that go back centuries, this picture is a blatant lie. … A picture does not have to be staged to be a lie. It just has to be massively unrepresentative of the wider facts and enthusiastically promoted to iconic status in a way that obscures those facts."

The columnist ("Jonathan Jones writes on art for the Guardian") has little to say about the story behind that particular photograph.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 02:18:20 pm by Isaac »
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Isaac

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2014, 01:33:52 pm »

If a lie means not representing the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, photographs always lie.

As do our senses ;-)

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Colorado David

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2014, 01:45:37 pm »

My BS detector goes red every time I see The Guardian.  The Guardian is not the guardian.  It is the very propaganda it claims to expose and oppose.

Isaac

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2014, 01:50:08 pm »

"Of all the disturbing images … one of the most popular online turns out to be a touching moment of interracial togetherness. … the choice to look at it and celebrate it is clearly a choice to be lulled by cotton candy."

Or a choice to support police officers who comfort children rather than kill them.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2014, 01:54:59 pm »

As do our senses ;-)

Who are you going to believe, me, or your own eyes?

Chico Marx in Duck Soup

Jim

mezzoduomo

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2014, 02:06:04 pm »

Seems to me that good photojournalism or documentary photography sometimes provides maximum edification and insight by presenting something different - something other than the prevailing or obvious theme or opinion - about a situation or event. Finding and capturing the metaphoric hug in the midst of the riot....is valuable.
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Isaac

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2014, 02:23:28 pm »

Who are you going to believe, me, or your own eyes?

I believe what I see, and I know that's not the whole truth.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 02:25:42 pm by Isaac »
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Manoli

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2014, 03:29:22 pm »

In order not to be taken in by the text, you need to appreciate the newspaper in which it was published. The Guardian would be viscerally opposed to the decision not to prosecute the policeman involved (whatever the actual facts) and to any idea that there could be such a thing as a good policeman, or that one showing some humanity could possibly be representative. It's a mindset. It's unshakable.

Jeremy,

Out of curiosity can you post a link to any article or editorial from the Guardian that supports your above contention ? Were they opposed to the decision not to prosecute (once the grand jury handed down a 'no indictment' verdict) ? I haven't followed the reports in the British press, so I really don't know - but I do suspect that it's not so much a British opinion, more a populist American one.

The facts are not disputed, the grand jury has come to the only decision possible in the face of perjury by some witnesses and irrefutable forensic evidence. What happened in Ferguson last week (and the preceding ones) was a display of unadulterated adult delinquency.  A national disgrace. A rampage of arson, looting and vandalism, stores and shops firebombed and wrecked. Police ordered not to interfere. Mob violence. Civil rights of law-abiding Americans systematically violated and ( temporarily) abrogated.

Neither the American President nor his Attorney General fulfilled their oaths. Worse.

So is the photograph a lie ?
' A picture does not have to be staged to be a lie. It just has to be massively unrepresentative of the wider facts' - and in the context that the Oregonian printed it, it probably is - and that is what the Guardian said.

M
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 03:41:42 pm by Manoli »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2014, 03:45:22 pm »

Hi,

A sample. Hard to interpret without a context. The image is probably true, but once you put it in a context it may tell another story.… World is not either or…

Best regards
Erik

If a lie requires an intent to deceive, this photograph may not qualify.

If a lie means not representing the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, photographs always lie.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 04:36:47 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Isaac

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2014, 04:20:04 pm »

…in the context that the Oregonian printed it…

Do you mean the context provided by the photo caption -- "Sgt. Bret Barnum (left) and Devonte Hart take pause amid an otherwise hectic Ferguson rally in Portland earlier this week." -- and introductory paragraph -- "As thousands gathered to make their voices heard during a rally earlier this week, one officer and a young man paused to hear each other out." ?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 04:23:32 pm by Isaac »
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Manoli

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2014, 04:23:00 pm »

re The Guardian, a LuLa reader just sent me this email,
<
The Guardian actually has a regular spot entitled 'Comment is free' for people to post their views on events in the news. It does not mean necessarily that those views reflect the editorial policy of the newspaper.  Indeed, by the banner  'Comment is free'  is also printed  '...but facts are sacred' - a 1921 quote from the iconic Guardian editor CP Scott (head shot included).
>

Comment is free / Framing the debate - the title of the series:

A great photograph doesn't only say more than a thousand words, it can also create a hundred different reactions. In this series we take a close look at contemporary and historical photographs and videos that divide opinion ..
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 04:26:33 pm by Manoli »
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Manoli

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2014, 04:30:09 pm »

Do you mean the context provided by the photo caption ...

No.

"Devonte struggles with living fearlessly when it comes to the police and people that don't understand the complexity of racism that is prevalent in our society,” she wrote, according to The Oregonian.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2014, 04:37:41 pm »

... The facts are not disputed, the grand jury has come to the only decision possible in the face of perjury by some witnesses and irrefutable forensic evidence. What happened in Ferguson last week (and the preceding ones) was a display of unadulterated adult delinquency.  A national disgrace. A rampage of arson, looting and vandalism, stores and shops firebombed and wrecked. Police ordered not to interfere. Mob violence. Civil rights of law-abiding Americans systematically violated and ( temporarily) abrogated.

Neither the American President nor his Attorney General fulfilled their oaths. Worse...

+1

Quote
...So is the photograph a lie ?
' A picture does not have to be staged to be a lie. It just has to be massively unrepresentative of the wider facts' - and in the context that the Oregonian printed it, it probably is - and that is what the Guardian said.

M

Not sure I agree with this. Are you suggesting that, in general, a white policeman hugging a black kid is "massively unrepresentative of the wider facts"? That the "wider facts" are that whites can or will not hug blacks? That, in itself, would be a massive lie.

Manoli

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Re: When is a photograph a 'lie'?
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2014, 05:08:01 pm »

Are you suggesting that, in general, a white policeman hugging a black kid is "massively unrepresentative of the wider facts"? That the "wider facts" are that whites can or will not hug blacks? That, in itself, would be a massive lie.

No, anything but.  I was paraphrasing the newspaper  '.. and that is what the Guardian said. '




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