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Author Topic: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job  (Read 3077 times)

roskav

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Hi All
Wondering if anyone has had experience of trying to get similar colours from different cameras using the camera icc profiles in C1 I am using an Aptus 75 for most work but also use a D800E (generic profile always too red) and also a fuji XE2  (great 14mm lens which picks up the odd wide angle interior - a pleasure to see the image pop up on screen but standard profile too magenta in the warmer colours)
I have experimented using a phase achromatic profile for the lot which does iron out some differences but there are trade offs with vibrancy and you always end up using the selective colour editor to match certain shots.  Other shots in the same job will need a different set of selective edits, so there is no catch all method.  Has anyone tried using colour patches to make profiles to address this issue successfully?
Thanks!
Ros
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roskav

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2014, 04:16:36 am »

Hi All again.  I'm missing something obvious probably but I'd like to try making some home made profiles and see how I get on.  I don't mean tweaking the C1 profile through the colour editor but rather using a colour target and software.  I use X rite colour checker for photographing artwork but use Adobe ACR for the raw conversion (creating DNG files) as there is no way that I can see of importing the generated profiles to C1.  - plus I have read somewhere that this is problematic even when you do manage to import the profiles.  Can anyone recommend a good workflow that allows the creation of profiles and use in C1 for colour critical work?   Any steers on software would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks.
Ros
PS am keeping an eye on the custom profiles topic!  Thanks Malcolm for posting and I'll have a look at Profile maker.
R
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 04:19:43 am by Roskav »
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Malcolm Payne

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2014, 05:42:09 am »

Hi Ros,

I've been using my own custom ICC profiles in C1 for art repro work for some years, and they're definitely more accurate for this purpose than the generic C1 profiles, which I assume are tuned for 'pleasing' results rather than pure colour accuracy. (The reasons for the modifications mentioned in the other thread are that some artist's pigments, blues in particular, don't always reproduce identically and frequently shift towards cyan.)

I use PM5 with the additional camera profiling module and a Digital SG target for the profiling. Unfortunately I suspect neither PM5 itself nor the camera module are now available since the takeover by X-Rite, unless you can find old stock* or a secondhand copy somewhere and, AFAIK, X-Rite doesn't offer anything equivalent. About the only good thing they've done is to ensure that the original dongle continues to work with both the old PM5 software and the i1Publish upgrade, so that I still have the benefit of both as required.

*Probably a bit of a long shot after all this time, but you could try Native Digital or Colour Confidence in the UK to see if they still have anything available.

The only other software I currently know of for camera ICC profiling is PictoColor's InCamera plug-in (http://www.pictocolor.com/incamera.htm), though I've never used it. It also appears only to support 32-bit versions of Photoshop.

If it would be of any help, I'm happy to run a few profiles through PM5 for you, if you'd care to email me the target images - ideally with the larger DCC SG target if you have it, otherwise the standard 24-patch CC will be OK. You should be able to PM me via my profile, otherwise you can reach me via the contact page at www.colourfasteditions.co.uk - probably best if you get in touch first so we can discuss file specs & profile requirements etc.

Best,

Malcolm
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roskav

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2014, 06:59:42 am »

Hello Malcolm

Many thanks for your generous offer of help.  I will certainly take you up on it my large target is now quite old so will get a new one before I send you anything.  I have an older machine here that I use specifically for making printer profiles as x-rite have tended to barrel ahead with software updates leaving licences floundering in their wake.  I know some other photographers who have done the same.  Thankfully yes the hardware is still supported in the newer updates for calibrating monitors.

Thanks again

Ros
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2014, 10:16:25 am »

Can anyone recommend a good workflow that allows the creation of profiles and use in C1 for colour critical work?   Any steers on software would be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks.

rawdigger (profile edition) + argyll (with optional UI frontend like makeinputicc from Iliah Borg)
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2014, 07:20:15 pm »

I've been using my own custom ICC profiles in C1 for art repro work for some years, and they're definitely more accurate for this purpose than the generic C1 profiles, which I assume are tuned for 'pleasing' results rather than pure colour accuracy. (The reasons for the modifications mentioned in the other thread are that some artist's pigments, blues in particular, don't always reproduce identically and frequently shift towards cyan.)

That's correct. The profiles in C1 Pro are made for general 3D photography rather than art reproduction.

"In-Situ Profiling" (capture a target and tell software like PM5 what the target should have looked like, and generate an ICC profile to effect that transformation) has some very significant limitations. To even try to do it well requires extraordinary effort to avoid glare, light fall off, or ambient reflections. More importantly even if it is done perfectly, as I'm sure you've no doubt discovered, the results are often excellent for the target used (as you've "taught the test" by showing it the target in the first place) but inaccurate in between those colors. The results are also often very jittery and "nervous" meaning that if the conditions of capture change even slightly the profile accuracy is significantly reduced.

The upcoming Capture One Cultural Heritage Edition will feature profiles made specifically for linear-curve color-accurate art reproduction. These profiles have been created with a unique process which is significantly more robust than the sort of in situ profiling currently available to end users.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 11:38:08 am by Doug Peterson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2014, 07:24:34 pm »

Hi All
Wondering if anyone has had experience of trying to get similar colours from different cameras using the camera icc profiles in C1 I am using an Aptus 75 for most work but also use a D800E (generic profile always too red) and also a fuji XE2  (great 14mm lens which picks up the odd wide angle interior - a pleasure to see the image pop up on screen but standard profile too magenta in the warmer colours)
I have experimented using a phase achromatic profile for the lot which does iron out some differences but there are trade offs with vibrancy and you always end up using the selective colour editor to match certain shots.  Other shots in the same job will need a different set of selective edits, so there is no catch all method.  Has anyone tried using colour patches to make profiles to address this issue successfully?
Thanks!
Ros


I think what you'll find is no matter what you do, making all three cameras more similar will rob the Aptus of the pleasing and beautiful rendition it is capable of providing. You'll be trying to match the least common denominator.

A better (though more expensive) solution would be to move toward a kit where one camera can do a greater percentage of the work. For instance an IQ250 might be able to replace both the Aptus 75 and the D800, and might be able to replace the XE2 with one of the more unique bodies/options out there that allow Canon/Nikon lenses on a MFD system.

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2014, 07:53:23 pm »

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2014, 10:18:58 pm »

"L*A*B* Support" = does it mean color readouts ?

Yes.

roskav

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2014, 10:35:50 am »

Thanks Doug.  Hadn't spotted that C1 CH announcement.  I'll be definitely having a look.
You are spot on about icc profiles using the targets.  Once you enter unknown waters the stability of the colour rendering suffers. I've used the phrase "Skittish" often enough when working with them.  Change the shutter speed or aperture and you have to put the target in the shot again.  I remember talking to a graphic designer who lamented their printing house turning off all the colour control systems and adding in a bit more magenta or yellow as they saw fit.   - But sometimes after an evening of working on shots of paintings, I walk into the gallery with a print copy of my files and note down "a little less magenta in the reds" or "more blue in the greens"  I sometimes wonder why I went to the bother of using targets at all.  (and this is not just down to lighting conditions when not under strobe - you can spot the imbalances easily in natural or mixed light)

And a new camera system to solve my problems!  :) That's true photographers' catnip.
I've been using the Aptus 75 since 2006 and while nothing I've had matches it for colour I find that the interface, and the systems I use with it let me down more often - to the extent where I have ditched my Hasselblad V camera and got some v good lenses for the Nikons for portraiture.  (most issues are with the syncing, which depends on a healthy copal shutter)
Thanks for the comment about the lowest denominator. - I had noticed that but it hadn't sunk in yet - I'm at one of those points where I have several systems on the go, good for evaluation but tough on post processing time.  I'll be keeping an eye out for the release of the C1 CH it sounds like a must for my business.
Best
Ros
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2014, 11:40:39 am »

And a new camera system to solve my problems!  :) That's true photographers' catnip.
I've been using the Aptus 75 since 2006 and while nothing I've had matches it for colour I find that the interface, and the systems I use with it let me down more often

Sounds like this cat needs a Mamiya Credo 60 on a modern AF body: bigger sensor, higher res, lightyears better interface, same great color, faster sync speed, and of course, autofocus :).

I look forward to hearing what you think of C1CH.

(by the way my girlfriend and I just adopted a cat - it's 21 pounds. No - you're not doing the conversion to metric wrong, it's about 10kg or 1.5 stones! We have been decreasing it's caloric intake, but it seems to absorb calories via osmosis!)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 11:55:15 am by Doug Peterson »
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roskav

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Re: Capture one icc camera profiles when using different cameras on one job
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2014, 01:07:54 pm »

Wow that is one big cat. Every time we bring ours to the vet his first instinct is to throw him on the scales and he's half the weight of yours.  We'll you guys never do things by half over there or so it is said :-) be prepared for loud miows when it doesn't get enough!  (Do all photographers have cats  - maybe that explains something) Yes the Credo 60 that's the one I would go for as the sensor is a better size for my tech camera lenses.  I'll investigate further!
R
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