Sony A7 II and IBIS in Sony dSLMs

[deejjjaaaa]

Sony A7 II and IBIS in Sony dSLMs

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5893009647/sony-announces-alpha-7-ii-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-with-5-axis-is

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/full-sony-a7m2-english-features-descirption-and-new-image-samples/

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a77i-officialy-announced-in-japan/

finally a close to normal grip !

[Torbjörn Tapani]

Finally IBIS! Hoping for a R version with EFCS. That's my next camera I think :-)

[narikin]

Any word if they damped & quietened that insanely noisy shutter? 

it quite spoils the A7R, and according to many causes camera shake.

[deejjjaaaa]

Any word if they damped & quietened that insanely noisy shutter? 

it quite spoils the A7R, and according to many causes camera shake.

A7 had it quiter (albeit not a whisper like) then A7r to start with and this is A7 line (mkII) camera... as for electronic rolling shutter as in A7s - I did not see anything about that... probably 24mp sensor is still the same old variety as in current 24mp cameras with minor tweaks in toppings

[photodan]

The a7r has excess shutter vibration (one reason I sold mine some time ago), but the a7 does not (although both shutters are somewhat noisy).
 
They both have pseudo 14-bit images and the raw files are lossy (as opposed to lossless) compressed - two very questionable (aka 'stupid' some might say, .. like me) decisions by Sony. I hope that this A7II model (as well as future cameras such as the rumored higher mp a9) does true 14-bit image processing and outputs a losslessly compressed raw file.

The A7II has a beefed up lens mount, the EVF is said to show the steadying effects of the IBIS, and there are numerous video enhancements, among other improvements.

This could be a really super camera!

[deejjjaaaa]

the EVF is said to show the steadying effects of the IBIS

any EVF will show IS effect by definition... you can't really start IS operation after the shutter release - otherwise it will increase the lag to the actual exposure start and you can't keep IS on all the time - dSLMs do not have big battaries... so by defintion you will see in any EVF IBIS effect (image starts to stabilize when you for example halfpress the shutter release) if camera has IBIS.. unlike OVF

[JV]

I would be nice if Sony in between bodies could release a few new FE primes as well...

[bcooter]

I would be nice if Sony in between bodies could release a few new FE primes as well...

I've been stoked on this system for a year and can't make myself by it, because there are too many things missing.

This gets it closer, but if Sony want's a check I really need (not want).

A7s
video
5 axis stablization
10 bit 422, 200mbs minimum.
good sound preamps and shielding.
tracking focus like a 70d
touch screen focus like a 70d.
hdmi out for monitor or recorder that locks

A7 or A7R
5 axis stabilization (got it on one now)
good medium iso.
good color response and less compression on raws.
track focusing (real 1dx quality track focus)
robust still tethering to a computer.

If they do it, I'll buy the cameras, the lenses, even the little plastic stuff everyone sells.

IMO

BC

[slowframe]

The a7r has excess shutter vibration (one reason I sold mine some time ago), but the a7 does not (although both shutters are somewhat noisy).
 
They both have pseudo 14-bit images and the raw files are lossy (as opposed to lossless) compressed - two very questionable (aka 'stupid' some might say, .. like me) decisions by Sony. I hope that this A7II model (as well as future cameras such as the rumored higher mp a9) does true 14-bit image processing and outputs a losslessly compressed raw file.

The A7II has a beefed up lens mount, the EVF is said to show the steadying effects of the IBIS, and there are numerous video enhancements, among other improvements.

This could be a really super camera!

I've been mystified by their using a lossy algorithm to produce 11 bit files. Or rather, by their making compression obligatory for the user.

My impression is that they must be pretty committed to doing things this way, as I believe in the A7s files are compressed. And they cannot be very large to start with.

Otherwise, it's an attractive camera.

[JV]

I've been stoked on this system for a year and can't make myself by it, because there are too many things missing.

This gets it closer, but if Sony want's a check I really need (not want).

A7s
video
5 axis stablization
10 bit 422, 200mbs minimum.
good sound preamps and shielding.
tracking focus like a 70d
touch screen focus like a 70d.
hdmi out for monitor or recorder that locks

A7 or A7R
5 axis stabilization (got it on one now)
good medium iso.
good color response and less compression on raws.
track focusing (real 1dx quality track focus)
robust still tethering to a computer.

If they do it, I'll buy the cameras, the lenses, even the little plastic stuff everyone sells.

IMO

BC

My wish list for the A7s is probably more modest: slight more malleable file in post of about 18MP, fast 21, 28 and 35mm lenses and significantly improved battery life.

The ergonomics of the Sony are not like Leica or Fuji IMO but you get used to it pretty quickly. 

Sony will get there I believe.  After all the system is only a year old... This is already the 4th A7 body in slightly over a year...

[Telecaster]

any EVF will show IS effect by definition... you can't really start IS operation after the shutter release - otherwise it will increase the lag to the actual exposure start and you can't keep IS on all the time - dSLMs do not have big battaries... so by defintion you will see in any EVF IBIS effect (image starts to stabilize when you for example halfpress the shutter release) if camera has IBIS.. unlike OVF

With Olympus' IBIS (the 5-axis version anyway) you don't see stabilization in the EVF or rear screen with a half-press of the shutter button unless you've turned that option on in the menus. My guess is the system is still active regardless, in the sense that the IBIS algorithms are crunching away, yet the sensor assembly isn't being moved. IBIS seems equally effective regardless of the setting. I tend to stabilize the EVF display with long focal lengths—makes it easier to frame—but not with shorter ones. Note that this all applies to still images…with video I think stabilization is always fully on.

-Dave-

[BernardLanguillier]

Sounds nice! The speed at which Sony is trying to perfect their system is impressive.

Cheers,
Bernard

[peterottaway]

I'm not a dedicated user of IBIS or OSS although in certain circumstances they can be useful. At the moment I'm wondering about the amount of computing power needed to move 5 axis stabilization with a full frame sensor especially when the camera is attempting sophisticated metering functions and EVF at the same time. No company can debug every possible combination of circumstances.

I would advise early adopters to expect some odd results and much changing in firmware before things settle down.

[Guillermo Luijk]

This is not the first 5-axis IBIS camera, and the existing ones (E-P5, E-M1) do fantastically well. I think metering or focusing is more reliable and easier for the camera engine once the image is stabilized. It makes sense to me.

I find much easier to check for perfect focus, framing or even exposure in manual mode when I half press the shutter on my E-P5 and get a wonderfully stabilished view on the EVF. Not different from the time I tried a 300mm with IS on my Canon APS.

[hjulenissen]

They both have pseudo 14-bit images and the raw files are lossy (as opposed to lossless) compressed - two very questionable (aka 'stupid' some might say, .. like me) decisions by Sony.

In order for the decision to be genuinely "stupid" we would have to know what is lost and what is gained. I believe that we (?) don't know.

I believe that a 14 bit linear raw file can be lossy compressed at practically no loss of image information. I.e. some of the bandwidth is wasted on storing noise that has no image-information in it.

I don't know if Sony does this a some pure software compression to save bandwidth/storage space (in that case it is strange that they don't offer the pure lossless as an option, if only to silence the critics), or if this is some physical feature of their ADC front end (as some has suggested). I.e. that the data is allready compressed once it reach their software for reasons unknown (ADC speed? Noise performance? Cost?)

-h

[hjulenissen]

Sony are doing some good stuff these days.

The A7/(A9?) is an interesting option once my Canon crop DSLR needs a replacement. I have a few worries, though:
*My Sony RX100M2 has very good IQ for its size. But ergonomy leaves something to be desired. Are Sony as good as Canikon on ergonomy in their bigger cameras?
*What is happening with lenses? Are Sony catching up? Sigma? Will converters for my Canon lenses do the job?
*I have really gotten into running my DSLR for 1 week on a single charge. When (if ever) will milfs get to that level?

In some ways, I am still hoping for Canon to wake up and offer a competitive 6D/EOS-M/A7 mashup once a sufficient number of customers start to leave. I guess I have invested time and money into flashes, lenses, ways of working...

-h

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I believe that a 14 bit linear raw file can be lossy compressed at practically no loss of image information. I.e. some of the bandwidth is wasted on storing noise that has no image-information in it.

Hi,

While this forum/thread is perhaps not the best place to discuss this in depth, I'm not so sure about the 'waste' part of storing noise.

Afterall, the signal consists of (Poisson distributed) shot noise, with 'some' more noise added by the capture system. The shot-noise component in my mind adds a bit to the malleability of the image data when we get to post-processing it. That of course does depend on some additional factors, like well depth that allows a significant signal level in order to steer clear of the other (system generated) noise components, but also low levels of PRNU. Some of that system noise could in principle be reduced by averaging multiple-read-outs from CMOS devices and good calibration.

There is even information hidden in the higher levels of shot-noise (which is where Sony does most of its compression), which can be made more detectable by averaging the signal component of multiple captures (which requires mostly stationary subjects). Lossy (actually irreversible) compression of that hidden info will risk losing it.

Cheers,
Bart

[deejjjaaaa]

With Olympus' IBIS (the 5-axis version anyway) you don't see stabilization in the EVF or rear screen with a half-press of the shutter button unless you've turned that option on in the menus.

yes, but that's a detail - like you can switch something off and not use that if you do not want that...

My guess is the system is still active regardless

image is coming from sensor... if IBIS is working why 'd your EVF get stabilized feed ? you seem to allege (below) that camera then wastes CPU/battery to undo IBIS effect ? and for what logical reason then (not even talking about implementation and not a word in camera manuals/forums about that since the dawn of IBIS) ?

, in the sense that the IBIS algorithms are crunching away

makes no sense and defeats claimed 100% view of sensor frame, etc, etc

IBIS seems equally effective regardless of the setting

I mean lag, not IBIS effectiveness... it takes time for IBIS to kick in... in some cameras like Pentax it was possible to make a shot (start exposure) before IBIS becomes fully active (which is indicated in your viewfinder)

[allegretto]

'ya can't always get what you want...

Finally in-body stability which should help... however

- how well does it work with adapters like MB? Which is poor for AF and AF lock.. so not sure it's all that great through an adapter

- It's (for me) the least interesting variant of the line 24Mx etc.... i know some of you it suits fine... just not me. I want super low light and high res but can stand 2 bodies. Note the beef up lens mount... I suspected that hanging Big Glass (OTUS, 24mm TS-E) may be too much stress on the fitting...?

Just picked up the A7R and am in the process of eval... maybe we will see price reduction on current models?

[JV]

I want super low light and high res but can stand 2 bodies.

If you want high resolution buy the A7R, low light the A7s, 5-axis IS the A7II, fastest AF the A9, etc.

Don't ge me wrong, it is extremely impressive what Sony is doing and they look very well positioned to take a larger chunk of the market next year.  I am also very pleased with the A7s...

but as a consumer it would also be nice to have one stable body that looks like it might be around for a while accompanied by some native primes...