Getting the most out of matte papers

[John V.]

An Epson Hot Press Bright thread popped up the other day, so I'm going to throw this out there since I'm printing on HPB at the moment and have been wondering about somthing...

Are vibrant colors, maybe even use the term "neon" just not even possible on matte papers?

One of the images I'm dealing with has this vibrant blue background with some purples and I just cant get close to it on HPB. Glossy etc papers, no problem... But the guy likes uncoated matte papers...

I've created custom profiles with a ColorMunki, both coated and uncoated.

Any tips?

(this is ProPhoto btw)

Here's a small small copy of the problem image:
 
http://adkisonartworks.com/temp/1.tif


 

[Mark D Segal]

From my experience, the dynamic range and gamut of matte papers are less than for luster and glossy papers.  I've yet to see a matte paper that can match the colour brilliance and Maximum Black of a good Baryta luster paper.

[Paul2660]

I agree with Mark on the gamut limitations of matte paper. Breathing Color Optica 1 is be best I have used but it's an OBA paper. Still I love the look and have never had any complaints. Soft proofing to a matte paper profile will almost always show limitations in the blues and brighter colors. Same with matte canvas.

Paul

[robgo2]

I agree with Mark on the gamut limitations of matte paper. Breathing Color Optica 1 is be best I have used but it's an OBA paper. Still I love the look and have never had any complaints. Soft proofing to a matte paper profile will almost always show limitations in the blues and brighter colors. Same with matte canvas.

Paul

For the most part, the gamut limitations of matte papers are only noticeable when you view matte prints side by side with glossy prints.  When matte prints are viewed alone under good lighting, your brain adjusts and tells itself that the colors are strong enough and the blacks deep enough.  Also, the absence of surface reflections is aesthetically pleasing.

Rob 

[Alan Goldhammer]

For the most part, the gamut limitations of matte papers are only noticeable when you view matte prints side by side with glossy prints.  When matte prints are viewed alone under good lighting, your brain adjusts and tells itself that the colors are strong enough and the blacks deep enough.  Also, the absence of surface reflections is aesthetically pleasing.

Rob 

This is the right answer!  I print on both papers and sometimes find that an image simply looks better on matte paper.  That being said if you hang the exact same image one printed on matte and one on glossy side by side you will see marked differences.  A lot of this is a result of different perception by the brain and I'm not saying that one is better than the other.  They are just different.

[robgo2]

This is the right answer!  I print on both papers and sometimes find that an image simply looks better on matte paper.  That being said if you hang the exact same image one printed on matte and one on glossy side by side you will see marked differences.  A lot of this is a result of different perception by the brain and I'm not saying that one is better than the other.  They are just different.

I still occasionally print on glossy papers, so I do not completely rule them out as being preferable for certain images, but you have to get the lighting and viewing angle just right to enjoy the full benefit.  I would add that surface reflections on glossy paper effectively reduce color gamut and Dmax, in addition to being distracting to the eye.  With matte papers, reflections are not a factor, which can make the image look purer and deeper, despite the limitations of gamut and Dmax.  In the end, it's an aesthetic choice.

Rob 

[mbaginy]

John, I think that image would print well on Moab's slickrock metallic pearl 260.

An interesting paper which is perfect for certain images.  Moab somehow messed up their icc profile, so soft proofing is impossible - best to create your own.

[Paul Roark]

My formula is (100% carbon) pigments on matte paper (Arches uncoated full sheets my favorite) for top fine art, and dyes on glossy (metallic my favorite) for the most "pop" and sales to impulse buying tourists.  (See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/4000-Noritsu-2K.pdf )  I'm B&W, but the same reasoning would apply to color.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/

[Pete Berry]

I still occasionally print on glossy papers, so I do not completely rule them out as being preferable for certain images, but you have to get the lighting and viewing angle just right to enjoy the full benefit.  I would add that surface reflections on glossy paper effectively reduce color gamut and Dmax, in addition to being distracting to the eye.  With matte papers, reflections are not a factor, which can make the image look purer and deeper, despite the limitations of gamut and Dmax.  In the end, it's an aesthetic choice.

Rob  

Ten or twelve years, printing with my dye-based i9900, I found the most intense blacks I've yet to see on Ilford's light and porous (but 13mil) 230gsm Fine Art Smooth matte - simply black holes you could fall into! In fact I won "Best Color" in a sea of glossies with it in a regional show, and the below posterized image's fluorescent greens and reds printed beautifully.

With my pigment based iPF's of the past six years I've found that raising the black level to clipping level and usually slightly beyond guarantees not only the best blacks, but also the most vibrant colors on my current Innova Photo Smooth Cotton archival matte and also RR's Polar matte I use for proofing.

I do admit to frequent impure thoughts of resurrecting the 9900!

Pete

[Some Guy]

I'm also having issues with blues out of a 3880.  Might be the matte paper and maybe some OBC issues with the ColorMunki Photo or i1 Profile 2, but it refuses to print a navy blue denim correctly.  It takes on a cyanish cast over the blue in the image, more like a sky blue than a navy blue fabric.  I would think the navy blue would be better suited to matte paper, but maybe not.

SG

[ehackett]

Just curious to know about this i9900---Canon i9900?   I recently printed a shot of some Australian performers on undistinguished glossy paper with little attention to developing (just basic adjustments) and was struck by the vivid colors.  The i9900 has been followed by an Epson 3880--a change driven by the desire for pigments and profiles--but still produces great prints.  Worth resurrecting (although paying $16 each for the little ink tanks is wearying).

Best wishes,

Ed

[mbaginy]

Ed, I have a Canon i9950 (European version of i9900 - same printer, different name) and only print win-word documents and CDs with it.  Good print quality, but darn expensive inks!  All my images are printed with the Epson 3880.  Far more economical!  I wish the 3880 could print CDs.

[DavidPalermo]

John Drew:  What is HPB paper?  Sorry I am not good with acronyms re paper yet!

Thanks,

David

[dchew]

HPB = Hot Press Bright